Felt the same way about the universe looking through an amateur telescope. How does one go on believing? Belief comes first, facts that support the belief are selected, those that contradict are discounted.
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas 269 Replies latest jw friends
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PSacramento
The universe is truly beautiful, awe-inspiring (though we have no reason to feel that or view it that way, we still do), a thing of indescriable beauty.
I see God revealed to Us in the universe, as I do in the words on the bible and in His Son and in ourselves.
We really shouldn't just take ONE type of revelation, say for exampel the bible or even Christ himself, as think that we have the total "view" of God, much less understanding.
As we learn more about the universe and see more, we learn and "see" more of God.
As the bible is a progressive revelation of God, so is th euniverse because OURS is a progressive UNDERSTANDING of the universe, of the bible, of Christ and of ourselves ( made in the image of God).
The OT view of God was simply ONE view and the NT view of God, as revealed in Christ, was the progressive cumulation of God revealing Himself to Us as "US", but that revelation continues to this day.
It continues via the Holy Spirit that opens our eyes to the wonders of the universe AND to the wonders of US.
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Nickolas
Sizemik and BoC join Twitch and me on the same page.
I was expecting you, too, Paul. Thanks for chiming in. But I'm not sure you're seeing the context in the way I am. Space and time. Unfathomable space and time. Why here, why now? What compels one not to doubt the Bible and the existence of God and His Son when juxtaposed against dimensions so impossibly large - unless it all comes down to faith and wanting to believe it is all true? And if it all comes down to faith, how is this particular faith different from any other, as in faith in Allah or faith in Brahma?
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botchtowersociety
how is this particular faith different from any other, as in faith in Allah or faith in Brahma?
All driven by the same basic things. It is the cultural trappings that vary.
You should read these works sometime, Nick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin#Teachings
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Awen
Actually Nick I don't get the impression that God is very small when I look at the Universe. I get quite the opposite impression. Then again size isn't really an issue when thinking in astronomical terms. A dwarf star might be so many times smaller than our own sun, but is much more dense.
The possibility of life happening by chance has been estimated to be 1 in 10 to the 40,000 power or 10 with 40,000 zeroes behind it. That's just the chance for it to occur once. ONCE.
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001127
Now consider that the diversity of life is one of the most striking aspects of our planet; hence knowing how many species inhabit Earth is among the most fundamental questions in science. Yet the answer to this question remains enigmatic, as efforts to sample the world's biodiversity to date have been limited and thus have precluded direct quantification of global species richness, and because indirect estimates rely on assumptions that have proven highly controversial. the higher taxonomic classification of species (i.e., the assignment of species to phylum, class, order, family, and genus) follows a consistent and predictable pattern from which the total number of species in a taxonomic group can be estimated. This approach was validated against well-known taxa, and when applied to all domains of life, it predicts ~8.7 million (±1.3 million SE) eukaryotic species globally, of which ~2.2 million (±0.18 million SE) are marine. In spite of 250 years of taxonomic classification and over 1.2 million species already catalogued in a central database, our results suggest that some 86% of existing species on Earth and 91% of species in the ocean still await description. Renewed interest in further exploration and taxonomy is required if this significant gap in our knowledge of life on Earth is to be closed.
So you have life occuring by chance (1 in 10 to the 40k power), some 8.7 million times on this planet alone.
Either we've had really good luck or something far bigger than us is at work here.
A person commits the fallacy of bifurcation when he or she claims that there are only two mutually exclusive possibilities-when, in fact, there is a third option. For this reason the fallacy is also known as the either-or fallacy and the false dilemma.
A facetious example is this:
"Either the traffic light is red, or it is green."
This is obviously fallacious, since the light could be yellow.
A more realistic example is this:
"Either you have faith or you are rational."This commits the fallacy of bifurcation, since there is a third possibility: we can have faith and be rational. In fact, faith is essential in order to have rationality (e.g., to make sense of laws of logic).
"Either the universe operates in a law-like fashion, or God is constantly performing miracles."This is also fallacious because a third possibility exists: the universe operates in a law-like fashion most of the time, and God occasionally performs a miracle.
Sometimes the origins debate is framed as "faith vs. reason," "science or religion," or the "Bible vs. science." These are all false dilemmas. Faith and reason are not contrary. They go well together (since all reasoning presupposes a type of faith) -
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tec
Well... Here and now because it IS here and now. Would a different time be more acceptable? If so, how? Perhaps all the conditions were right in the Universe for us to be here and now?
The universe (s?) was around long before us. Why does that challenge anything? Why does that even mean anything? God is eternal. So what is time to Him?
These are sincere questions.
Oh, the other thing I wanted to ask you about: What showdown between God and Satan are you referring to? I'm just curious if we're talking about the JW challenge to sovereignty or something like that?
Peace,
Tammy
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PSacramento
I was expecting you, too, Paul. Thanks for chiming in. But I'm not sure you're seeing the context in the way I am. Space and time. Unfathomable space and time. Why here, why now? What compels one not to doubt the Bible and the existence of God and His Son when juxtaposed against dimensions so impossibly large - unless it all comes down to faith and wanting to believe it is all true? And if it all comes down to faith, how is this particular faith different from any other, as in faith in Allah or faith in Brahma?
Why here? why Now?
You ask that as if those questions were never asked before ;)
I think that doubt is very natural and I persoanlly have concerns for those that can look into the heavens and NOT doubt as much as I have for those that look and believe. I think it is very natural to want to KNOW and to want to understand and I believe the reason we WANT to know and WANT to undertand ( even though we don't need to), is that because we are made in God;'s image we have this WANT to KNOW God and the Universe that reveals Him.
The fact is that there is NO REASON to believe in a God or in sceince or anything other than what we NEED to get by in our day-to-day, all the other animals on this planet mange to do just fine without asking the "big questions" or understanding why water turns to ice or why it rains or what happens after we die.
That we DO ask and that we do WANT to know, that we DO feel "complete" when we find our "WHY" or "HOW", is evidence that we are not just "any old animal", at least it is to me, your milage my vary of course :)
Truth be it said for the majority of people NOT believing in God would make their life for easier and perhaps even more "pleasurable".
Space is awesome, it is finite however and did have a beginning and MAY have an end and maybe that is why the more we find out about the universe the more we want to know more.
As to why thsi faith over another faith?
Well, that is for every believer to answer and I doubt that all have the same one.
For me, it is based on reason and rational ( at least to how far I can take both) and isn't and never has been and never will be, based on "blind faith".
I see the universe and I see God, I see the purpose an dorder of it and see Christ, I see it's power and beauty and I see the Holy Spirit.
But hey, I also like watch sci-fi moves, so what do I know?
;)
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sir82
So you have life occuring by chance (1 in 10 to the 40k power), some 8.7 million times on this planet alone.
Either we've had really good luck or something far bigger than us is at work here.
Why is this a strict dichotomy?
Might there be a 3rd, or 4th, or 100th, possible explanation other than "God did it all" vs. "it all came about by random chance"?
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bohm
The possibility of life happening by chance has been estimated to be 1 in 10 to the 40,000 power or 10 with 40,000 zeroes behind it. That's just the chance for it to occur once. ONCE.
I can estimate the chance to be 99.9% but it would only be a guess and totally unrelated to the real world, just like the number quoted above.
So you have life occuring by chance (1 in 10 to the 40k power), some 8.7 million times on this planet alone.
Either we've had really good luck or something far bigger than us is at work here.
do you even understand what independent trials mean, or did you just deside it was okay for you to ignore it?