The elders came today without any notice and visited with me. They told me that my mother in law said I didn't want to have anything to do with the witnesses anymore. I said yes I did say that and then I laid it all out for them why I felt that Jehovah god wasn't with them. My in laws don't like me because I wouldn't keep secrets for them, they are the biggest hypocrites in our congo, plus other things that they did that I posted on other threads so they are really wanting to see me DF'd Or DA'd. I felt kind of sorry for the elders during thier visit, I did most of the talking and they really didn't have anyway to respond to the things I had brought up, except for when I said Jesus died for all of our sins the one elder said that Jesus died for MANY not for all! I was taken aback by that. Also the bible was not cracked open once during this discussion. I brought up the NGO and UN thing they never even heard of it. I told them about the sexual abuse cases that were settled with the Org they claimed that they didn't know anything about that either. I told them how I felt the Org was blood guilty and used the example about new light on organ transplants, and how if J. Rutherford and C.T. Russell would be resurected into the this time they would be DF'd for their beliefs. Also I brought up Beth Sarim and how J. Rutherford lived high on the hog during the depression off of the org. Of course they chimed in how I must be getting my info from apostates I told them I got info from newspaper articles such as the Guardian, and from our own publications. I also pointed out how easy it is to slap the apostate label on anything that goes against the org and make it null and void even if it is truthful. I said that it is a loaded word and is used as propaganda, and they AGREED! I also told them that I know the truth about the so called truth and I feel compelled to tell everyone about it witnesses and others! I brought up how the org had stocks in Phillip Morris and how that was public record, they were not aware of that. They acually listened to most of what I had to say, and not really disagreeing with what I had to say. And after all was said and done they said that they needed me to come to a descision to DA myself, or stay in the Org. An elder will be by on Thursday to pick up my letter. Part of me wants to stay in just to be a pain in the ass to my in laws, but I really can't be a part of this bullshit cult anymore.
Well I have a choice to make
Jesus' followers couldn't be part of the Pharisees' teachings, either. But they stayed in the temple and synagogues, where they could preach to their "brothers". The people were skinned and thrown about (abused by their human overlords), just like JWs. They need help. While I realize the rank and file JW has no authority or say, neither did the apostles. They had to take the initiative to speak the truth, human authority be damned. Jesus warned that would get us thrown out of the synagogues, eventually. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't recall seeing any reward or reason for pride from walking away, but that's just my take on the subject.
The elders came to visit me too today! We're in the same boat. I felt like I got through to the younger elder (although he's older than me) but the hardcore elder (maybe they were doing good cop, bad cop routine) visibly ignored what I had to say, turned his head away and sighed a couple of times.
The bad cop eventually said, we're not going anywhere we're just reasoning in circles. I said, yes that's true, I'm glad you saw that but it's not my statements, I reasoned to you from the Watchtower publications. My reasoning was that disfellowshipping was not scriptural. They showed me the (out-of-context) scriptures and I put them in context for them and they said that doesn't make a difference.
I also said, what if someone does no longer do these things but for other reasons does not want to be a JW. They said: You have to agree with everything JW's currently believe in order to be reinstated. Even if what we believe is wrong or is going to be adjusted? Yes. How do you know what you're currently believing is morally upright? <blank> because the organization says so.
I eventually got to the topic of who's making the decisions. Are elders imperfect? Yes. Are their decisions sometimes imperfect? Yes. Even in judicial cases? Yes. So if you know for sure someone is a child molester but you do not have 2 eye witnesses, can you morally live with yourself letting them go without reporting them to authorities? Younger Elder gets very uneasy. Older Elder: "Yes". How do you live with yourself? "Those decisions are hard but we have to go by what the organization says". Even if what you're doing at that point is morally wrong? Younger Elder looks weirder. Older Elder: Yes. So how do you know you're doing the right thing then? Jehovah guides his organization and he will correct things later. So you're blaming God? No. You have to think those decisions are made in heaven and passed down through us. So how can the result of judicial cases be wrong? Older Elder: "Look, we're getting in circular reasoning here." Younger Elder: "I agonize a lot about those decisions, I even cry for weeks sometimes". How is that if Jesus says his load would be lig... Older Elder: "Look, we're getting nowhere how about we talk to you at another time..."
I went over the examples where Paul and Barnabas had different opinions. Can you as a Witness have other opinions and hold to them? No, we're unified. Even the controversial things. What controversial things? Disfellowshipping and blood. There are no controversial things with Jehovah's Witnesses, everybody is on the same page about that. But I'm not. Well, you shouldn't consider yourself a Jehovah's Witness then. Will I be disfellowshipped if I disagree? Yes. So how can anyone have a different opinion if they get disfellowshipped for it? Real Jehovah's Witnesses don't have a different opinion! Because you disfellowship people that do right? Yes.
Put up a No Trespassing sign. If they ignore it, call the police and have them arrested. Get a restraining order on them. They are harassing you, coming by uninvited, trying to bully you into following their rules.
Whether you give them a letter or not, the fact that you admitted to saying that you wanted nothing to do with the JWs anymore in the presence of two Elders™ gives them what they need to announce that you are No Longer One Of Jehovah's Witnesses™.
Good for you Igot2bme . . .
That sounds like it was an interesting conversation. I was surprised that both of them were that ignorant of the issues you raised . . . most Elders I knew were able to trot out the BS excuse on the UN thing at the very least. I'm sure I recall a letter on it. The "shoot the messenger" mentality soon kicks in with the Apostate reference . . . nice comeback on that score. Particularly with the current articles being studied ATM.
At the end of the day . . . it was obviously just an "are you in or out" type visit . . . applying Corporate policy. But who knows, you've given them plenty of food for thought.
I hope the fallout is not too severe . . . and wish you the enjoyment of your new freedom.
ED to add: Anony Mous . . . sounds like you were getting "everywhere" . . . and Elder Snr didn't like it. Wonder how that conversation went after they left?
they said that they needed me to come to a descision to DA myself, or stay in the Org.
You DA'ing makes it easier for them, they would rather you do that then have to DF you. If you don't DA and choose to stay in the Org, they will disfellowship you unless you recant what you said, they will not let it be, they can't.
Keep us posted! I would love to hear about the follow-up!!
And I hope that there is minimal fallout...
I'd follow Scully's advice plus call or leave message that you aren't following their rules and will be more than happy to contact your lawyer. If possible, have security camera installed on your front door step.
Hey, Leaving 101!! How ya been??
Good to see you again!
It's late, and I've got to shower and hit the bed - otherwise I'd love to chat! Maybe via PM - later?
@Wontleave-I did use that scripture, I said to them that I had no ill will towards anyone in the cong and that I felt that they were being duped by the Org and they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepard, and that the true believers that speak the truth would be persecuted people like me who couldn't stand being fed lies anymore. WOW, you should of seen the looks on thier faces! Of course no response to that either!!!
@Anonymous-You really got to that younger elder! The older elder sounded like he knew you made a break through! Good going! I hope that both of our outcomes are not to tramatic!
@Sizemilk-I live in a rural community, and the elders in our hall are up there in years. I kind of think that they are kind of sheltered from any news that would concern the Org. I am going to print off a news article and present it to the elder when he shows up to pick up my letter!
@Wannabefree- I thought about that as well, I am kind of stuck but I feel that I have to write that DA letter there is no other option. It feels good to tell them about things they had no knowledge of!
@Ziddina-Thank you and I will keep you guys informed to what happens.