Impressive post trailerfitter
JW Women Self-0Loathing - Get a Back Bone
Saw this quote and thought it very applicable on this thread:
Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are just as enraged as those who are.
I agree, good post, trailerfitter...
For me, the crucial issue was the fact that the bible is a Middle-Eastern book written by Middle-Eastern men. Ignorant, superstitious, primitive, Bronze-Age Middle-Eastern men, even.
I would guess that, IF there were some method to drive that point fully home into every female Jehovah's Witness' mind, that would be the most likely 'trigger' to stimulate a mass exodus of women OUT of the cult.
I would particularly like to see that, because, as has been pointed out many, many times before by many different posters, it is the women who form the unsung backbone and foundation of the religion - cult. For that matter, it has been the women - held in mental bondage due to the misogynistic attitudes incorporated into the bible - who have formed the basis for all three recently-generated Middle-Eastern religions on earth today.
I've often wondered why women of European ancestry would want to worship a Middle-Eastern male god... I am almost positive that 99% of the Christian women doing so, are COMPLETELY unaware of the true nature of the biblical/Christian 'gods'...
I agree with the silence.
In most matters now I take the lead and my husband respects me more. I realise now that he has always been submissive and that he won't change. As a witness I had to change from being a dominant type to a submissive type. And then all through our marriage both of us were completely submissive to the Watchtower. When I started to leave I tried to encourage my spouse to become more dominant whilst remaining moderately submissive myself. this did not work. Now that I play the leadership dominant role more we are both happier. we get things done, we make mature decisions, we go on holiday, we have fulfilling hobbies (well I have more fulfilling hobbies at least). If there are urgent things to be done around the house, repairs etc I say "lets spend the weekend doing this and he agrees taking time off from field ministry and meetings". I initiate holidays and he agrees. When we were both submissive Jehovahs witnesses we rarely went on holiday, household repairs piled up or were botched up by me.
However he will always earn much more than I. this I cannot change.
I respect and value his beliefs and committments and I absolutely do not despise his submissive nature or his submissiveness to the Watchtower. This is who he is and what he enjoys being.
You know, soft+gentle you have just confirmed by earlier beliefs that we are actually here on this planet to learn. We go through experiences in our and are transformed by then in either better or wiser people.
I think the point is missed. It's fine if it works in your relationship for the husband not to be as dominat. Surprise surprise that is how it is in my relationship but there is a mutual respect for each other as individuals. However, the point is on this thread is that the society pushes only one acceptable role for women and that is of the passive, submissive role. Have any of you ever seen a publication that promotes the wife to be dominant and the husband to be in submission?.....I think not. So again the point of the thread is not what works for each individual but the the fact that the society continually puts women as the weaker, inferior, submissve and helper role. It would be different if they said "Well as we know it is Unchristian to stereotype. Jesus never did and so following his example neither should we. So we shall leave it up to indivual couples to decide what works for them." However, that has never been said and will never be said by the society because as Ziddina pointed out it is a mysognistc organization threated by strong women. Again the point is not works for you individually but what the SOCIETY promotes that is making the OP angry....just saying.
I think most of you are missing the point of why JW women allow themselves to be treated in these variously described ways. It isn't a lack of backbone or Bronze Age corporate male oppression or St. Paul's misogyny. It's more basic than that.
Look, the JWs live in a particular society and, in this society, status is determined in very interesting ways. In particular, wealth/earning is relatively de-valued while commitment to the religion is strongly valued. If JW men earn less than average (on average) it is because status within the group is directed toward religious behaviors, one of which is the devaluation of wealth.
The JW women are just as much a part of the society as anybody else and make sexual choices based on status within the group. Women who have the highest status are married to men who have the highest status and that requires, all else being equal, that both the man and woman show high levels of religious commitment. Religious commitment has a very specific and observable set of attributes within the JW society.
Pretty simple. Women "allow" themselves to be treated in the ways described because the benefits in sexual fitness far outweigh the costs. Same reason men "allow" themselves to be saddled with all the small (but costly, in terms of time) obligations within the JWs: sexual fitness. It would be a mistake to underestimate the degree of status accrued by men who are successful within the JWs at succeeding levels; be seen giving talks at the District Convention and you can hear the status-o-meters clicking like crazy.
This also explains why Intel's wife went sour on him: basically, it was his fault (I say this without intending anything bad). But, obviously, she was deriving significant status from Intel's positions within the JWs. She was quite right to grasp that rejecting those status identifiers would drastically reduce her status within the group. When he does something stupid like follow his conscience, she knows that's bad news for her.
Actually, I feel bad for Intel's wife (within this context). For women JWs, status is almost entirely dependent on the husband's status. Depending on her age and attractiveness, she may be able to make another match; fortunately for her, divorce is common with the JWs. Unfortunately for her, there are more women than men in the JWs, so a Bether Elder of her own age should be able to score a young hottie. Not a good game to have to play.
Let's face it.
Both genders of JWs have given up their backbones by allowing a small GB to run every aspect of their lives.
If the GB decided that women should wear suits, ties, and trousers and men should wear skirts, JWs would meekly go along.
With regard to women, the GB could say that suits and trousers show appropriate modesty and that ties are symbols of biblical submission.
With regard to men, the GB could say that skirts are similar both to the flexible battle gear worn by warriors and to the robes worn by priests in Jehovah's organization in the days of King David.
How appropriate it would be for loyal witnesses of Jehovah to make such wardrobe changes in the short time left before Armageddon as a testimony to the whole world that the greater King David -- Jesus -- is about to come as a warrior to bring about the battle of the great day of God Almighty and as a priest to usher in the new system!
Both genders of JWs would be grateful for the new light and make the changes immediately.
For example,step by step by
"I think the point is missed. It's fine if it works in your relationship for the husband not to be as dominat. Surprise surprise that is how it is in my relationship but there is a mutual respect for each other as individuals. However, the point is on this thread is that the society pushes only one acceptable role for women and that is of the passive, submissive role."
If that is all that was said I would have readily agreed. I *don't* agree with the role the society gives women. I *don't* agree with how women in this religion (or most religion) are considered to be second class citizens. I also *don't* agree with the broad generalizations of the opening post about every male in the religion. The women in that religion allow themselves to be treated that way. That is their choice and some of them are happy with it and I respect their choice. If a woman is not happy with it she has the ability to get up and leave just as the rest of us did. I can rage and rail against the *policy*. I have a problem with raging and railing against the *people* who are victims of the policy which is what the opening post seemed to me to be doing. Men in that religion are victims as well, even the misogynistic assholes. :)
Well I don't see the governing body, which is made up of all men as "victims" and I don't see circuit overseers, elders or presiding overseers as victims, which are all male. I don't see the eager young asshole wanna be elder as a victim who is also male. Going with your reasoning nobody "made" them take their positions and they can leave at any time.....so the male mysognystic assholes in the religion are "victims" but as you say:
" The women in that religion allow themselves to be treated that way. That is their choice and some of them are happy with it and I respect their choice. If a woman is not happy with it she has the ability to get up and leave just as the rest of us did."
So all the men are victims and the women are not? I am a little confused...
I just think it is interesting whenever there is a thread on how women are treated unfairly, which was the point of the thread how many jump in and for some reason feel the need to defend men in general. Yes I pointed out to bandontherun that she should not make broad generalizations and they we all don't fit in little boxes but her main point, which is the way women are treated in the JW religion is wrong and they should stand up for themselves, agree 100%.
Many have pointed out why women allow themselves to be treated like that and high control JW groups use the Bible to make women feel guilty for not being in the submissive women mold......I would say that is emotional blackmail and it is wrong. They feel that by submitting themselves to their husband they are in fact submitting themselves to God and that is why they do that.
Also you said:
" That is their choice and some of them are happy with it and I respect their choice. If a woman is not happy with it she has the ability to get up and leave just as the rest of us did." You really think some JW are happy with that arrangement.....really? We all know better.Do you also think victims of domestic violence, which are the majority women also have the "ability to get up and leave?".....It is proven that domestic violence and the JW religion go hand and hand....think about it.