JW Women Self-0Loathing - Get a Back Bone

by Band on the Run 98 Replies latest jw friends

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No, I disagree. Women have responsibility, too. It may vary from individual to individual woman. Women need to change, then men will follow. If we wait for men to see the error of their ways, women will never have power. Civil rights movements started with people like Gandhi organizing the Indians, not the British. This is an area where public schools could play a valuable role. TV and film can, also. I saw women such as Barbara Walters, Margaret Mead, and others. It changed me. Waling around a major city as a child, I saw worldly women being well treated. Every little chip at the WT as the only reality.

    We don't live in compounds the way fundamentalist Mormons do. Public school played an invaluable role in turning me against the WTBTS. Worldly people were clearly not evil.

    One of the first plans to get rid of the Taliban was to return Afghani women to college. The problem I see is that "liberated" women will choose to leave rather than reform.

  • AGuest
    I believe too, that a lot of this is evolutionary in that it is deeply ingrained in our species (the strong man leading and protecting the woman and the woman desiring to be lead and protected).

    I have to disagree with this statement, dear GN (peace to you!). I really believe that this is a societal phenomenon... except perhaps when a woman was about to give birth (which is about the only time she can't do for herself - although today many Euro-American women still believe they can't just after, women the world over have and do... give birth, then get up and get back to the "routine" immediately after).

    Long ago, men were killed by a plethora of means, including wild animals, accidents, wars (even on a tribal level), leaving women to fend for themselves... and their children. In such a sense, women had to do EVERYTHING a man had to do (hunting, protecting the "clan", etc.)... as well as go ahead and bear/care for the child she was carrying at the time, as well as any other children she had.

    The myth that we are "weaker" seems to have originated with men (most probably those who were insecure and/or sought control of others) who COULD make the argument because of menstruation and its related "symptoms," our tendency to cry a little more (although that's not necessarily a bad thing), and childbearing. Certain women, rather than taking offense, used this as a justification for NOT doing the harder, dirtier work. Because most of us are a bit vain and prefer to be "pretty" (or thought to be so).

    But relegating women to an inferior position also made it easier for all kinds of things, including but not limited to property seizure, homosexual activities (and I am NOT putting down homosexuals; I am referring to the well-documented time(s) in man's history and culture where it was considered that a women's only "value" was in producing offspring... which culture still exists in certain parts of the world - the middle east, primarily), and more.

    RELIGION... has been the main tool to perpetuate this phenomena, however. First, with the declaration to Eve (that HER husband would dominate HER, and for him would be HER craving), then with how Sarai and others addressed their husbands (which was nothing more than a show of respect but has been used by religion to perpetuate a kind of inferiority), and then with Paul's often misogyistic admonitions.

    I get it that many men can survive without a woman; in the same vein, many women have survived in this world... and survive now... without a man. Even in the face of society's that limit what she can do to feed her family AND while having to maintain all of the usual domestic responsibilities that society expects of her. A man can live in a dump and folks will just say, "Oh, well, he's a man. He needs someone to help him." Not so for a woman - even if the dump is the fault of her man... it's her fault for not keeping it clean.

    Do I think women in the WTBTS have it harder than the men? Yes and no. Yes, to some extent, because of the limitations placed on them. The WTBTS doesn't allow women to be "ministerial servants," even though both men AND women were such during the first century. They use Paul's comments about not allowing a woman to teach/speak in public as grounds for that restriction - however, neither had anything to do with such service: ministerial servants were merely those who saw to it that the items offered to the poor... and distributed by the OVERSEERS... got to their destination. And so, there HAD to be women ministerials servants... because the DISTRIBUTION... was to orphans and WIDOWS. No male servant could have showed up at a widows house alone... nor without SOME women. So, it was simply better to SEND women. Phoebe was one such woman. Romans 16:1 However, woman also spoke to and taught the men; hence, Priscilla and those like HER.

    I do NOT think that WTBTS women have it harder, per se, though, because they CHOOSE to accept the restrictions placed on them, although they have NO foundation in Christ OR the Bible. They are, most of them, those Paul called "weak women", after describing the MEN they follow:

    "But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth." 2 Timothy 3:1-7

    Paul's restrictive viewpoints, positions, and admonitions were due to (1) his Pharisaical training, and (2) the ROMAN LAWS in effect in the region at the time. But NOT Moses or the Jewish Law. HE... was a ROMAN and so concerned not only with Judaic law but secular law. Both Moses AND the Law had GREAT reverence for women, however. Moses' own sister, Miriam, was his fellow prophet. Deborah was appointed a judge. Jael killer Sisero when Barak (a man) would not. Esther saved Israel. Abigail saved David. And many other women took positions of lead or assertion.

    WTBTS women would KNOW this... if they bothered to READ what the Bible SAYS on these matters, versus what the WTBTS purports the Bible to say about them. If they would take an extra minute or two and LOOK UP the cited verses, they would see that what the WTBTS is teaching and pushing is NOT supported by the Bible, Christ... and, after a time, Paul. Instead, they LAZILY defer their OWN spirituality to others: the WTBTS, GB, "FDS", and their husbands, and it was prophesied that such would occur:

    "An astonishing situation, even a horrible thing, has been brought to be in the land: The prophets themselves actually prophesy in falsehood; and as for the priests, they go subduing according to their powers. And my own people have loved [it] that way; and what will YOU men do in the finale of it?” Jeremiah 5:31

    Unfortunately, their deference isn't going to fly in the end of it all. In the END... EACH ONE will have to give his/her OWN accounting. And just like the men aren't going to be able to say "The WTBTS/GB/FDS said...", the WOMEN aren't going to be able to say, "The WTBTS/GB/FDS/my husband said..."

    Christ did not approach the MAN in the relationship and tell him to go get his "wife" in the account of the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well; he told the WOMAN... to get HER "husband." He spoke to, called, and gave the blessing to HER... first. Just as he showed himself first to the WOMEN who NEVER left him... even when he was impaled... rather than to the MEN... who fled.

    In the end, then, NO ONE is going to be able to say, "The woman/man YOU gave me... she/HE made me... listen to/follow the WTBTS." Didn't work for Adham... and isn't going to work for anyone else. Sadly, by the time the women of the WTBTS wake up and understand this truth, it may be too late.

    So, that some ALLOW themselves to be treated such... because they listen to the WTBTS... indeed, they WANT to listen to the WTBTS... MORE than they listen to GOD... because they do not listen to CHRIST... because the WTBTS "lifestyle" fits their desires MORE than true "godly devotion"... undermines my sympathy for them. I have some sympathy, even empathy to some extent... but it is limited. As with an alcoholic or drug addict: I can sympathize with their struggle. But if they chose not to even struggle... but actually LIKE their "disease"... I have to be through.

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,


  • meangirl

    Interesting comments. As a female I never wanted to "follow". I bought my huband his wedding band and he bought me my ring. I think I am the only female I know who has actually bought her fiance's wedding band but that was very important to me. I always wanted a partner, someone who was my equal. I didn't want him to lead me. I wanted to journey together. Status is important to me and I am very goal orientedand somebody referred to those qualities as male in a previous post.... I am constantly looking at what things I can acheive. I am never happy stagnate. I am also someone that gets told "You think too much"......

    Sometimes I wish I could just be like other "women" and be content with my "role" but that is just not me. Now I know why they say "ignorance is bliss".......

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    If I had a $ for every time I've been told by men "you think too much" and "smile," I'd be wealthy. My supsicion is that I was born with my temperament. Seeing my JW mom being beat to a pulp by JW father, screaming Paul's admonitions to her (words that Paul never said, by the way), soured me on submission. My JW aunt and uncle had a beautiful JW marriage. I was cut from different cloth.

    The second women's movement picked up steam as I came of age. It influenced me greatly. Growing up, I wanted to be in the male power centers. My big dream was to be a secretary so I could meet executive men. It never occurred to me that I would be the executive.

    One thing I find sad from this round of women's lib was that women had the choice to stay home with children. Now almost all women must work as an economic necessity. I attended an elite women's college. The profs could take off for their kids but the administrative assistants could not.

    Paul wrote that in Christ, there is neither male nor female. Such a statement that he did write is at odds with his submission statements. I read Crossan's Paul and the Roman Empire book this year. He portrayed Paul as a feminist! I think he is right. All my rage towards St. Paul withered. I no longer want to spit in his face.

    From a practical human standpoint, don't societies and men/women do better when they work in harmony, trading strengths. I know from legal work with NOW that the NYC standards for police and fire people were smashed early. An objective test took the place of gender discrimination. Soon there were women in the NYPD. The Fire Department went unwomaned for years b/c no woman could pass the upper arm strength tests, a key component of job function. We are not the same. A genital should not dictate social status and power. Submission sounds like war and treating the vanquished. Neither male nor female sounds like a new existence, full of promise.

    I read a history of the episcopal church in NYC. Vibrant ministries existed until the advent fo women's liberation. Legions of women worked in these ministries and were not recognized. When women left the ministries to enter the work place in the 1960s and 1970s, most of them had to close. Their yearbooks and celebration memorabilia show no recognition of the combined impact of so many women providing free labor. It is the Watchtower's loss, which may be our gain. Perhaps a woman could calculate Armageddon correctly and save much embarassment.

    So many independent women are mentioned in the New Testament. Until women's liberation, I only knew Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Mary and Martha. A madonna, a prostitute and a housekeeper, basically. Women's names were there for century after century and no one noticed. The Bible does not paint Magdalene a whore, but a prosperous businesswoman who supported Jesus financially. No one noticed.

  • clarity

    Kinda hilarious!

  • Narcissistic Supply
    Narcissistic Supply

    Jeho Males are castrated at baptism.

    Thanks for playin'

  • losingit

    What's hilarious about this thread? My major beef wuth the society was its treatment of women. I just could not atand it any longer. I saw the JW men as power hungry, fighting for insignificant privileges just to save ego. Dumb! I got sick of illiterate arrogant men firmly telling me to go back and stand behind a counter bc I dared to show him in which box the brochure was located. He was not humble enough to be directed by me. It is what it is.... Funny, now that I'm looking for an equal partner, I don't even know how to go about being in such a relationship after being mistreated by every JW male I know. I will continue to stand up for myself, however, bc practice makes perfect.

  • apostatethunder

    I think being a witless involves having not much of a back bone, whether you are male or female. That being said, women do have a lower status in the organization, but that is mostly nominally, as in the practice many of them wear the trousers.

    Most of them are busybodies and very envious of each other. When you go in the ministry very few are capable of any subject of conversation that does not involve gossiping about someone else's business. I suspect that comes from their being unhappy and frustrated with their own lives, and because the cult does not promote genuine good qualities in people. Also they live in a very small world, and gossipers make very good informants anyway.

    I would also say the majority of them have experienced something like this at some point, which obviously does not contribute to well-balanced partnerships and a good self-esteem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kQ2xOHheG4

  • Sapphy

    "Most of them are busybodies and very envious of each other. "

    That is not my experiance.

Share this