WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

by AnnOMaly 322 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AnnOMaly

    Hi kurtbethel

    Please be careful of the adamoh.org site - Gunnar get's terribly muddled and frequently his info is incorrect.

    I have a wonderful free program called Stellarium that I use out in the field to locate and identify objects during my observing sessions.

    Stellarium is a lovely program for more modern skies. IMO it isn't that great for ancient skies. The moon is often shifted a few degrees further to the west compared with other programs I've used, like SkyViewCafe and Alcyone Ephemeris. The program, I think, fares better with planetary and stellar locations, however.

    First I check April of 588 BCE. No good. Saturn is in Gemini. Way off.

    Please bear in mind that, according to Furuli, the planetary positions on the tablet fit 568/7 BCE but he thinks they were likely retro-calculated centuries later (by the Seleucids) to fit with a revised chronology which mixed and matched 568/7 planetary data with 588/7 lunar data onto one tablet. The WT article just claims the planetary names or positions on the tablet are too ambiguous or unclear to be of any use. Of course, as has been pointed out by Doug Mason and Carl Jonsson in their Critiques, this claim is pure nonsense.

    Just to emphasize: Furuli and the WT article claim that only the 13 lunar positions relative to stars are genuine observations belonging to 588/7 BCE. All other positions on the tablet - the lunar positions relative to the sun (i.e. the 'lunar three' time intervals) and the planetary positions - are disregarded.

    Here is my star chart.

    Just a small problem - even though Saturn is approaching Pisces - I notice your date is -568-04-23. The astronomical date for 568 BCE is -567. This is Saturn's position at the beginning of Nisanu in 568 BCE:

  • Londo111

    Good work, Ann!!!

  • AnnOMaly

    Black Sheep:

    What I want to know is, is the name used for Saturn in this instance ever used to describe another heavenly body that could create confusion?

    No! David Brown's book is used to support this claim, however he points out that the 2 names for Saturn on the tablet - SAG-UŠ and GENNA - are not shared with any other celestial body. Please see pp. 12, 13 and 14 of Doug's Appendix for scans of the relevant pages in Brown's book.

  • Azazel

    To all you clever people a most wholehearted thanks for your insight on this subject. 607bce has become a pivotal( wts terminology) date and its just not so, i can see that now.Ive downloaded and started using Stellerium what a cool program and ive seen the sky back then for myself.

    For the wts to imply that the planets are not a accurate guide to calculation is to Imply God has imperfect creative ability , that the heavens dont run like clockwork- which they do. Just another nail in their own False Prophet Coffin.

    Wheres their credibility now?

    I have always applied this to WTS publications : DONT LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD STORY!

  • Dutch-scientist

    By The way:

    Carl Olof Jonsson response (part 2) November edition WT 2011



  • Londo111

    For the benefit of all new lurkers, I think we should keep bumping this thread to the top every few weeks or so. I consider it the most valuable one of this board.

  • Knowsnothing


  • Londo111

    I know that VM44 and discreetslave mentioned writing the Society about these articles...did anything ever become of that?

    I'm sure they would respond with very stock answers.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    Downloaded Stellarium and Cartes du Ciel for Mac, and have been going through the planetary observations of VAT4956 from AnnOMaly's Neugebauer translation. So far so good - Saturn, Venus, and Mars seem to fall in place just as they should. The only problem is, for some reason they all (with the exception of Saturn) seem to be falling below the horizon. So their positions with relation to the constellations is perfect --- what am I doing wrong? It seems like the sky is rendering as it should, but about 20 degrees below the HZ.

    AnnOMaly, ALLEYMOM or any other junior astronomers, let me know if you have any advice.

    Even better, a separate thread with a step-by-step for dummies would be great!



  • breakfast of champions

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