1874, 1914 and 1943

by TD 96 Replies latest jw friends

  • djeggnog

    @djeggnog wrote:

    I wanted @Cameron_Don to read the quote from the Watch Tower, dated October 15, 1913, which not only supports my contention that there was never any expectation on the part of the Bible Students that Christ's Second Coming would occur in 1874, but that he is a liar. I wanted to further make the point that even though "the kingdoms of the earth" did not come to an end in 1914, there was every expectation on the part of the Bible Students "according to the best chronological reckoning" of which they were capable at that time that Christ's Second Coming, his return or Second Advent, would occur in 1914, "whether it be October, 1914, or later":

    We say that according to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time--whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events: (1) The termination of the Gentile times--Gentile supremacy in the world--and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s kingdom in the world. The kingdoms of earth will come to an end, and "the God of heaven will set up a kingdom."

    (Daniel 2:44)

    @jwfacts wrote:

    What about the following quotes then?

    [What you quoted is your message is in red text below.]

    Look: Are you a child or what? You have here provided not one, but two quotes taken completely out of context in order to prove your contention that Russell and the Bible Students did not believe Christ's Second Coming or Second Advent would occur in 1914 with the hope that such nonsense would escape my notice, as might escape the notice of the clueless and weak-minded functional illiterates that have had little or no formal education, many of whom have no high school diploma and have never learned the folly of providing statements made out of context as proof to someone with an education and who doesn't suffer from a reading comprehension disability.

    At the end of the day I know that at this time nothing will sway you, as your comments above show you want to be a JW beyond any reasonable levels of logic.

    Logic? What you are calling proof convinces me that you are a crazy person, or at best an individual that struggles functionally as an adult with an average intelligence as against other adults with a superior intellect, for there is absolutely nothing logical about either of these quotes you provided me. What could you have been thinking (or thinking with!) for you to have quoted a book released in the Rutherford era as proof of what the Bible Students taught during the Russell era, considering the fact that Russell died in 1916, some 11 years before the Creation book was released? I'd rather discuss a Bible-related topic than to hear your thoughts as to the history of Jehovah's Witnesses since I'm convinced that you don't know how to think. To be able to apply logic, one needs to at least have a grasp of fundamentally mundane concepts of which you presently do not grasp.

    Whether or not TD and Don are correct in what they say makes no difference to you. But you do need to stand corrected for the sake of others that read this thread.

    I "need to stand corrected"? This is not an American idiom, is it? What you said isn't a British idiom either. Perhaps you were home-schooled, and this might explain why it is you say things like this, thinking that others will think you to be smart guy. Personally, @jwfacts, reading this portion of your message was hilarious, but this is all beside the point that I wish to make here. My point here is that both of these quotes you provided in your message were taken out of context. The conclusions you reached and included in your message were absurd. I underlined the surrounding text from the Thy Kingdom Come and Creation books from which the quotations in your message came that you did not include that would have informed you as to the context of Russell's and Rutherford's words that for some reason you thought would make your point about what Russell believed as to Christ's invisible presence and his Second Coming, which, in those days, Christ's "second presence" was thought to have begun in 1874 and extended to 1914, "during the latter part of the period known as 'the time of the end.'"

    It is important to note that Rutherford writes "second presence," and not "second coming." When referring to World War I, Rutherford writes that "[t]his is another strong corroborative proof of the Lord’s presence and of the end of the world, beginning in 1914," which simply meant that Rutherford believed "the end of the world" to be a part of "the Lord's presence," which in 1927 he believed, as did Russell before his death, had begun in 1874. I thought I would humor you for the sake of the lurkers, but I won't go through this again should you post something as proof that, like here, you took out of context, as if I even thought you could be convinced by proof.

    Thy Kingdom Come

    Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 3

    "Study VI, The Work of Harvest," pp.149, 150

    Not only has the Lord shown us what to expect in this "harvest," and our share in it, both in being separated ourselves and, as "reapers," in using the sickle of truth to assist others to liberty in Christ and separation from false human systems and bondages, but in order to render us doubly sure that we are right, and that the separating time of the harvest has arrived, he provided us proofs of the very year the harvest work began, its length, and when it will close. These, already examined, show that the close of 1874 marked the beginning, as the close of 1914 will mark the end, of this 40 years of harvest; while all the minutiae of the order and work of this harvest were portrayed in that of the Jewish age, its type. Some of the marked time-features of that typical harvest we will now examine, and note the lessons which they teach, which are applicable now, and which our Lord evidently designed for this purpose, so that we might not be in either doubt or uncertainty, but might know of his plan, and be able to act accordingly, with strength, as cooperators with him in carrying out his revealed will.

    All the time-features connected with the Jewish harvest (though they sometimes indirectly related to the faithful), had their direct bearing upon the great nominal mass, and marked periods of its trial, rejection, overthrow and destruction as a system or church-nation. Thus the Lord, as the Bridegroom and reaper, came (A.D. 29) not to the true Israelites only, but to the entire mass. (John 1:11) The progress of the harvest work there disclosed the fact that the grains of ripe wheat fit for the garner (the Gospel dispensation) were few, and that the great mass was wheat merely in appearance—in reality only "chaff," devoid of the real wheat principle within. When, three and a half years later (A.D. 33), our Lord assumed the office of King, and permitted (what before he had refused—John 6:15) that the people should mount him upon an ass and hail him King, it marked a point in this antitypical, Gospel harvest more important far than that of the type. The parallel to this, as we have seen, points to 1874 as the time of our Lord’s second presence as Bridegroom and Reaper, and to April 1878 as the time when he began to exercise his office of King of kings and Lord of lords in very deed—this time a spiritual King, present with all power, though invisible to men.


    Chapter 12, "Coming of the Lord", pp. 289, 290

    During that period of time Christ Jesus must be present. That presence dots not mean that he must leave heaven to be on the earth; but what it manifestly means is that his special attention is given to the Fathering together of his true followers and separating them from the nominal followers, and making ready conditions to take charge of the world’s affairs. The Scriptural proof is that the period of his presence and the day of God’s preparation is a period from 1874 A.D. forward. The second coming of the Lord, therefore, began in 1874; and that date and the years 1914 to 1918 are specially marked dates with reference to his coming.

    The "world" includes both visible and invisible governments; hence it means heaven and earth. For centuries Satan has been the invisible ruler of governmental organizations on earth; and, being invisible to man, he has also ruled man’s heaven. The time must come when Satan's world must end, and when he is ousted from heaven; and the Scriptural proof is that the beginning of such ousting took place in 1914.

    The temple of the Lord means his approved followers, those constituting "the body of Christ". The time must arrive when Christ Jesus comes to his temple to take an account with his followers. The Scriptural proof supports the conclusion that the coming to his temple was in the year 1918. Later there must follow the complete overthrow of Satan’s organization, both visible and invisible, and the establishment of an invisible and visible government of righteousness.

    Jehovah caused his prophets to write concerning the coming of Christ, and their writings were couched in "dark sayings" or prophetic phrase. Prophecy can not be understood until it has been fulfilled or is in the course of fulfillment. From 1874 to 1914 the prophecy concerning the Lord’s coming was being fulfilled and could be understood, and was understood, by those who were faithful to the Lord and who were watching the development of events, but not by others. With the coming of 1914 the outward events or physical facts made known in fulfillment of prophecy were so clear and plain that al1 who studied the Word of God with a desire to understand could understand, whether they were consecrated to the Lord or not.

    The great time of trouble, known as Armageddon, will so clearly reveal the plan of God concerning the establishment of a new government that all men can then see it. To this end it is written: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him." (Rev. 1:7) Clouds symbolically represent his presence in time of trouble. In that time of trouble all the peoples of earth will understand or discern the presence of Christ.

    For the purpose of enabling the student, to more fully and easily understand the proof of the Lord's second coming, the time of his coming is here divided into separate periods, to wit: (1) The day of preparation, (2) the end of the world, (3) coming to his temple, and (4) Armageddon.

    These periods of time collectively are embraced within what is designated in the Scriptures as "the time of the end", which is here first considered.


    Chapter 12, "Coming of the Lord", pp. 298, 306, 307

    The most important thing to which all the prophecies point, and for which the apostles looked forward, has been the second coming of the Lord. It is described by the prophet as a blessed time. Daniel then says: "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days." (Dan. 12:12) The watchers here are, without question, those who were instructed by the Lord to watch for his return. This date, therefore, when understood, would certainly fix the time when the Lord is due at his second appearing. Applying the same rule then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to 1874 A.D., at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord’s second presence was due. If this calculation is correct, from that time forward we ought to be able to find evidence marking the Lord’s second presence.

    There are two important dates here that we must not confuse, but clearly differentiate; namely, the beginning of "the time of the end" and the beginning of the presence of the Lord. "The time of the end" embraces a period from 1799 A.D. to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire and the establishment of the kingdom of Messiah. The time of the Lord’s second presence dates from 1874 and is during the latter part of the period known as "the time of the end".

    The Lord’s presence began in 1874, as heretofore stated. It was in 1878 that there was the first manifestation of God’s favor returning to Israel. This was marked by reason of the efforts made on behalf of the Jews by Disraeli. then the prime minister of the British Empire. A few years thereafter a movement designated "Zionism" began to restore the people of Israel to their land.

    During the World War, to wit, November 2, 1917, which was the beginning of the Jewish year 1918, the British Empire expressed its willingness for the Jews to establish in Palestine a government of their own. Other leading nations have acquiesced. In the spring of the year 1918, the Jews began to rebuild Palestine; and now it is a commonly known fact that thousands of Jews have returned to Palestine and they are buying the land and building houses and otherwise improving the country exactly as the Lord foretold. This is another physical fact or circumstantial proof of the Lord’s presence at the end of the world.

    Another evidence mentioned by Jesus was the fact that following the war, and during his presence at tho end of the world, there should be "upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; . . . men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which arc coming on the earth". (Luke 21:25, 26 ) He had stated that the World War was the "beginning of sorrows", and now he shows that the distress must continue. It needs no proof that all the nations are today in perplexity, and that men are distrustful one of another and fearful of what they see approaching. This is another strong corroborative proof of the Lord’s presence and of the end of the world, beginning in 1914.

    @jwfacts wrote:

    Prior to 1914 the Watchtower taught that the second coming was in 1874.

    @djeggnog wrote:

    Prove this by providing a quote from any Watchtower publication that teaches that Christ's second coming occurred in 1874. Until you should get around to producing such a quote, this statement of yours is a lie.

    @Cameron_Don wrote:

    It appears that he has provided what you asked for.

    Is that right? If anything that @jwfacts posted by way of response should really seem to you to be what I asked for, then the fact you so concluded would make you an idiot in my opinion. I don't need you to referee the "action" here; I'm fully capable of determining for myself whether I am satisfied by something that you or anyone else should provide me as proof in support of any of the contentions that "you guys" make here on JWN. What is more, what @jwfacts doesn't satisfy me at all. Like you, @jwfacts just wants to argue and I'm going to now let me do that with someone else.


  • sizemik
    I attack a person's arguments, not the person. . . . DJEggNog
    Look: Are you a child or what? . . . DJEggNog
    Logic? What you are calling proof convinces me that you are a crazy person . . . DJEggNog
    Perhaps you were home-schooled . . . DJEggNog
    the fact you so concluded would make you an idiot in my opinion . . . DJEggnog

    These are all examples of how DJEggNog only attacks the argument ... not the person

    something that you or anyone else should provide me as proof in support of any of the contentions that "you guys" make here on JWN.

    THEM v US distinctions too . . . first rate material for my thesis . . . thanks DJ . . . keep it coming.

  • bohm

    sizemik: Dont you mean person rather than argument?

    what kind of thesis are you doing btw?

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    I rest my case...

  • the-illuminator81

    bohm: i think he's being sarcastic..

    djeggnog: You requested a quote, jwfacts supplied said quote, and now you are not satisfied with the quote? Maybe you should've asked for something else then. Would you be satisfied with a pony? If you're so superior in intellect, how come you keep using logical fallacies in a discussion?

  • bohm

    sarcasm fail!

  • sizemik

    @bohm . . . sorry, left out opening quote . . . I was being deliberately facetious to make a point.

    PSYC335 - Abnormal Psychology. The thesis is on Psycopathology . . . specifically; social, developmental, physiological, cognitive, learning theory.

    I wouldn't want to add anything further that would create bias in the subjects here.

    ED: bohm you have a PM

  • TD

    Well I'm the first to admit that there may be subtelties to complex eschatological systems that I might miss, but it appears to me that Russell believed and taught a simple two-stage advent:

    We are to remember that the Scriptues outline two distinct features connected with the second coming. First will come the parousia or "presence" of the Lord recognizable only by the wise and foolish virgins. In his parousia or "presence" he will test and prove his Church, dividing them into wise and foolish virgin classes...

    Later on will come the manifestation of Christ with his church, in power and great glory, in the setting up of his Messianic kingdom and in the overthrow of everything contrary to it. -The Watch Tower October 1, 1910 [4692]

    Russell could be casual in his terminology and did not appear to see any contradiction in saying on one hand that “all time prophecies bearing upon Jesus’ coming end at or before the fall of 1874” and on the other hand saying that the Almighty’s generous plan would was soon “to be put into operation for the world at the second coming of Messiah.”

    But when Russell wanted to be precise, he made a point of describing these two features of the second coming using different Greek words:

    To the very best of our ability we have endeavored to make clear that the parousia of our Lord is wholly different from his epiphania. The epiphania or apokalupsis of the Lord in power and great glory is not to the church nor for the church, but to the world and for the world. "When he shall thus appear we also shall appear with him in glory," the Apostle declares....

    The crowning day of joy to the church will be followed by our Lord's apokalupsis and epiphania. To the world he shall be revealed in flaming fire of the time of trouble, but nevertheless with power and great glory, "and all his saints with him." -The Watch Tower January 1, 1910 [4544]

    Therefore it appears that as an adult, Russell saw himself at a similar juncture in the stream of time as do Jehovah's Witnesses today. He imagined himself to be living after the invisible parousia had begun, but prior to the visible manifestations of the end of the old order which everyone would see. --The epiphania


    It is essenatial to recognize the International Bible Students were seen by God Yahweh as His endtime era people . Their dates 1874 AD,1879 AD,1884 AD completely identify them as such God's true people.

    These dates allow us to work out the final predictions I was able to come to though I have realized that in much later time when I should have been.

    1874 AD + 120 years = 1994 AD .

    1879 AD + 120 years = 1999 AD.

    1884 AD + 120 years = 2004 AD .

    And we can add 7 years for 7 days from Noah's time and get 2011 AD .


    Any valid prediction now must have this 120-year attachment to show we have the time similar to the times of Noah's days.

    Matthew 24.37-39;Genesis 6 ,7,8 .

    To make this superb Jehovah's Witnesses had the year 1942 AD as the year for the end of the world that proved they were legitimate successors to the International Bible Student Association.

  • Crisis of Conscience

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