Question for the Athiests/Agnostics

by jwfacts 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sizemik

    Ho hum . . . OK follow closely . . .

    You directed a comment to me by name . . .

    sizemike, atheists are free thinkers so our recommendations can be quite objective (joking)

    The inference is that I was representing atheists as not being free thinkers and lacking objectivity . . . which I didn't.

    That's all . . . carry on

  • Curtains

    sizmik, believe me, I was not suggesting anything lacking in you or your post. When you make such inferences please also allow for other inferences that would indicate fullness

    edit: thanks for replying as I was waiting in for it. going out now

  • discreetslave

    These are the conclusions I've come to recently in my Bible reading. I still have to investigate other lines of thought so they may change. But still having a fresh JW mindset it may help others

    Q: How must we worship? What is truth or who has the truth?

    A: (John 4:21-24 ) Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. .. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

    -The Spirit is unseen one does not have to be in physical structure or a certain place that’s why Jesus said neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem but in spirit & truth. (John14:15-17)15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16 and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU.

    (John14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. . . True Christianity does not have to mean belonging to one church or group. It is superior to the Law in that it is spiritual not physical. God’s spirit is evident among any individually or as a group exercise faith in Christ and display Christian qualities. Jesus said that would be love and being humble willing to learn like a child. Pauls writings gives priciples for good morals. Holy Spirit would be evident by the fruitage that results from genuine love & good works. Jesus was charitable he kept a money box for the poor, he cured, & provided food. See below for preaching work.

    Q: What about Hebrews 10:24,25?

    24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

    Anywhere one finds believers in Christ is a Christian. Learning about him when gathered with others incites one to love & fine works. You find fellow Christians to work good towards other based on love like charitable org. Or while gathered with others you are motivated to be a good person & imitate Jesus on your own. One can choose to belong to a certain church or find others (ex-JWs)who just like open discussion of the bible in any setting. Or one can be a Christian on their own and when in need of company go anywhere Jesus is preached. As JW’s we were told TV and internet is associating with others. So watch a broadcast, Skype, or use a social network.

    (Matthew18:20) . . .For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

    (John10:7-10)7 Therefore Jesus said again: “Most truly I say to YOU, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those that have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage. 10 . . .

    (John10:14-16)14 I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.

    Wherever it is taught that salvation lies in that Christ came in the flesh to die for our sins and was resurrected is acceptable. Trinity or not the basic principle of Christ Sacrifice is there. If you go somewhere that does not sound like the shepherd’s voice to you leave & go somewhere else

    1John 2:18-23 Was speaking of not associating with Anti-Christ those who deny Jesus outright or by their way of worship not those who sin in error. (Titus3:10-11)10 As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11 knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned. These scriptures can can be applied to any religion that insists on it’s being the sole means of salvation when that designation only belongs to Christ.

    Q: What about the preaching work?

    House to house is not the only way as JW’s we learn that. (Acts17:17)17 Consequently he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews and the other people who worshiped [God] and every day in the marketplace with those who happened to be on hand.

    Paul visited Jews in their place of worship some churches allow for visiting speakers or public testimonials. Paul spoke in the marketplace while shopping you notice someone who needs direction in life or a hope offer to help them better themselves by teaching them faith in Jesus and practicing true Christianity.

    (Acts17:19-20)19 So they laid hold of him and led him to the Ar·e·op´a·gus, saying: “Can we get to know what this new teaching is which is spoken by you? 20 For you are introducing some things that are strange to our ears. Therefore we desire to get to know what these things purport to be.”

    Preaching work is done by speaking to crowds in public. Paul did it. There is little mention of the house to house ministry in Acts. (Acts20:20) . . .while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house. There are more references to Pauls preaching to groups than from house to house. House to house may have been a tool for Jewish or Middle Eastern homes since hospitality is so important in their culture. It could mean visiting homes of interested ones who had heard the public speeches. If house to house was to be the identifying mark Paul would have given counsel in regards to it in his letters. He just mentions ministry which is accomplished in a variety of ways. Like visiting Sweet Frog the workers shirt have the acronym Fully Rely On God.

    As far as the good news being preached before the end it is happening. Christianity is being made known in so many ways. Jesus said no one knows the day or hour just be a good Christian and leave the rest to GOD.

    In regards to overseers I’m still working on that. And I’m not convinced that making a living off bible based publications is wrong if you live by the essence of True Christianity.

  • wobble

    "Dear God, please preserve us from your believers."

  • undercover
    If such a person starts questioning the Watchtower and they asked you "where else to go?", what would you recommend?

    How did we deal with that question personally? We each asked ourselves that somewhere during our awakening. How we dealt with it may give us a hint on how to answer that if the situation arose.

    For me, I had somewhat of an epiphany reading Johnny Cash's autobiography. I was reading it while I was still processing the realization that the WTS was not God's Earthly Channel but yet had not reached the point of questioning the existence of Jehovah himself.

    JC (Johnny Cash, not Jesus Christ) was a religious person and believed his faith in God helped him with his struggles with addiction his entire life. Yet, he didn't belong to any one faith or church. He supported a lot of religious causes, especially Billy Graham's crusades because he thought he was truly a man of God.

    Anyway, ole JC commented in his book that he never understood why people felt the need to go into a building to get close to God. God created the earth and all its beauty. He said he felt closer to God by taking walks in nature and seeing God's handiwork.

    That made me think when I read that. Here we were as JWs spending countless hours a week inside a KH... a bland building by comparison to other churches. I remembered, as a kid, laying in a field and watching the clouds and being awestruck by the awesomeness of nature. Somewhere I had lost that. So for a short while I followed Cash's example and tried to find inspiration from God's handiwork, nature - before I realized that Jehovah, the JW god, didn't exist and that the Bible Gods existance was in doubt.

    Anyway, the point to all that rambling is that if someone asked "where else to go", I'd tell em, "Maybe God doesn't need you to go into a building to worship him. Maybe you can find inspiration by seeking him on your own in a meadow or forest somewhere...just you and him."


    People do not choose to believe or not believe in a god. We arrive at conclusions due to a number of factors and influences. Our education will play a part in how we assimilate the information and experiences that we are conscious of.

    If someone is unable to accept Bible based religions they should examine Eastern spirituality. I have friends who have found peace and comfort in them.

    To me freedom from the religious slavery of following Jesus, or any invisible being who will decide my fate, is worth any price. But if someone is happy in their religion they should stay, even if they are JWs.

  • discreetslave

    I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I was just presentling a line of reasoning for those who prefer Christianity after leaving JW

    I believe there is good in all religions. In my view even atheism/agnosticism is a sort of religion. I'm of the world view but my roots are in the Christian faith.

  • tenyearsafter

    I think the key to deciding on a spiritual path is to first acknowledge that there is NO PERFECT CHURCH! I know this may seem a bit simplistic, but the reality for ex-JW's is that we have always lived in a world of absolutes while in the WTS. This mindset makes it VERY difficult to even consider associating with another religion because it will automatically cause a mental conflict with the absolutes of belief that we lived under as JW's. As LWT mentions, most churches do not require absolute adherence to church dogma...there is no one policing of your thoughts or bringing you up before a judicial body for judgement. The key point taught in Christian churches, as an example, is the need for a personal relationship with Jesus and a fellowship with other believers. Beyond that, people take many other paths within the church. As Talesin points out, you may want to voluteer your time in some type of service to others...or you may want to work as lay teacher. Nothing is carved in stone.

    If we are looking for perfection in this world, we will never find it, be it in the WTS, other churches or in non-religious pursuits. Life is limited by the imperfection of long as we accept that, it makes other choices both easier to make and accept.

  • NomadSoul

    My answer is: "Anywhere but there."

    Nah, it's a hard question to answer. I would just try to set a good example.

  • Paralipomenon

    The "where else to go" is a defense mechanism. If you suggest anything, they are trained to look at all the faults of that religion (while not looking for faults in their own) to feel better that they have the right religion.

    If someone is sincerely asking where else to go, they will have already left the witnesses in my opinion.

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