Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei 122 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Chariklo

  Ixthis

  Judas Iscarios is very well known for his betrayal of Christ but that is NOT the reason why he "lost his soul" eternally. In accordance with the early church writings and traditions it is the fact that he was despondant and takes his own life rather than trusting in God's mercy.

  That's a dangerous line of argument, isn't it? Taken to its logical conclusion, it condemns all who feel down, anyone suffering from a depressive illness, because you can't exclude those from your dictum for who can distinguish between a serious mental illness and a feeling of despondency?

  So, don't feel blue because God won't forgive you? I don't think so.
• 

  ixthis

  Chariklo and AGuest, thank you for the opportunity to clarify, though more was read in to the original statement than was intended. I guess, it is easy to presume what someone is saying given lack of detail or also our own projected bias into conversations. However, tackling the issue of Judas's suicide versus mentally ill induced suicides is two separate issues. What is certain is that despondency and clinical depression are not the same thing ... though, it is easy to identify that there is a very close link between the two. Judas deliberately commited suicide not due to a mental illness but so that he could get in to Hades before Christ to be saved - he never trusted in God but his own rationalisation of how to be saved. Nonetheless, concerning mentally ill patients:

  What I know to be true is that in situations in which an Orthodox Christian has successfully taken their life, merciful and major pastoral consideration is given to the scientific research findings that suicide-depressed patients have a significant impairment of cognitive function.

  In as much as 'deliberateness' is a major factor in evaluation of the culpability of "sinful" thoughts and actions, most suicides are most probably 'involuntary.' Severely depressed individuals have sharply attenuated cognition. Most depressed patients are not capable of sufficient reflection and willfully rejecting God and his gift of life. A person who commits suicide under such conditions would not be blameworthy in terms of voluntary sin and thus consideration of the usual Memorials is given.

  Given this discussion provides for the opportunity to say so ... depression is so insidious, not only because it takes away life's pleasures hopes and aspirations, but because it also robs us of the sight of God.

  In the depths of despair we do not pray to Whom we do not see. We see ourselves cut off from Him who is the source of all life. However using our intelligence, we may use scientific clinical approaches, which, have been shown to be effective in the treatment of depression, enlivened with the Holy Mysteries, the channels of Grace given to us by Christ a genuine healing can be commenced.

  The Church is the healing Body of Christ. All the parts of His Body work toward healing of the sick member. Christ is the vine the source of strength for the branches.

  He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High, who abides in the shadow of the Almighty, will say to the Lord, "My refuge and my fortress; my God, in whom I trust." his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day, ... nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor the destruction that wastes at noonday. (Ps 90: 1-2, 5-6) ...

  Depression was known to the Old Testament Patriarch Job who tells us: "My eye has grown dim from grief [depression], it grows weak because of all my foes." (Job 17:7). Also, the prophet Jeremiah tells us: "My grief [depression] is beyond healing, my heart is sick within me."(Jer 8:18).

  The Apostles and Church Fathers equally knew the deleterious effects of depression. "...worldly grief produces death," states St. Paul. (Rm 7:10).

  This 'death' is in the world of personal, family social and occupational functioning, and more importantly "spiritual death" of the soul blocking out the light of God's love and leaving the depressed individual in the darkness of despair. St John Cassian tells us:

  "But first we must struggle with the demon of dejection who casts the soul into despair. We must drive him from our heart. It was this demon that did not allow Cain to repent after he had killed his brother, or Judas after he had betrayed his Master." (Philokalia I).

  Because we are made in God's image and likeness, we can use our intelligence to help understand and treat mental disorders such as depression.

  With the Orthodox Christian patient, spiritual intervention can be initiated concomitant with a cognitive-behavioral intervention. Prayer, selected spiritual reading, and the sacraments provides spiritual healing for mind body and spirit.

  Care that the patient does not misinterpret scriptural passages and spiritual reading and thereby increasing the depression. The patient may well make his/her own the words of Job: "For the arrows of the Almighty are in me; my spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me.... Can that which is tasteless be eaten without salt, ... My appetite refuses to touch them; they are as food that is loathsome to me." (Job:6: 4-7). If reading were to stop here, surely the depressed individual might consider God has abandoned as Job thought initially that God abandoned him.

  Of course, Job was faithful to God despite his adversity and in the end God rewarded him. Rather a prayer of hope can be made:

  "But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid! Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog. Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen! I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:" (Ps. 21:19-22).

  Orthodox Christians may also be given spiritual reading that includes the Church Fathers on despondency. St. Symeon the New Theologian tells us:

  "Contrition of heart, then excessive and untimely, troubles and darkens the mind, destroying the soul's humility and pure prayer and paining the heart. This induces a hardening to the point of total insensibility; and by means of this the demons reduce spiritual people to despair."...when this happens you should sit down in a solitary place by yourself, collect yourself, concentrate your thoughts and give a could counsel to your soul saying: 'Why, my soul, are you dejected and why do you trouble me?....my salvation lies not in my actions but in God... Put your hope in God...Yet by virtue of my faith in God I hope that in His ineffable mercy He will give me salvation....resolutely enter your normal place of prayer and falling down before the God of love, ask with a compunctive and aching hear, full of tears, to be freed from the weight of listlessness and from your pernicious thoughts." (Philokalia, IV)

  The Prayer Against Despondency of Father Arseny can be so powerful for those depressed:

  PRAYER TO OVERCOME DESPONDENCY

  "O my beloved Queen, my hope, O Mother of God, protector of orphans and protector of those who are hurt, the savior of those who perish and the consolation of all those who are in distress, you see my misery, you see my sorrow and my loneliness. Help me, I am powerless, give me strength. You know what I suffer, you know my grief-lend me your hand because who else can be my hope but you, my protector and my intercessor before God? I have sinned before you and before all people. Be my Mother, my consoler, my helper. Protect me and save me, chase grief away from me, chase my lowness of heart and my despondency. Help me, O Mother of my God!"
• 

  1975

  Here's my two cents. I'm no youngster, I've been in association with many so-called friends, and believe me, they are not friends. I have less than a hand full of friends. The betrayal of Jesus doesn't surprise me. Each of us are at the whim of selfishness. This selfishness is a POWERFUL influence in our make-up. When we desire something, what do we do, hmmmm. When we have an extreme desire for something, what do we do, Hmmmm, at what costs are we willing to satisfy our thirsts, yes, at what cost's? To think what others may do, how about us? just my 2 cents.

  1975
• 

  ixthis

  So true 1975 ...
• 

  Terry

  Come on, people...work with me here!

  These Jesus stories were oral. One person told others what the teller told them.

  Stop and think. Every time one of the Jesus stories was told there would be questions and objections to overcome.

  "Hey, if Jesus is so smart and wise, wouldn't he have known Judas was going to betray him?"

  The teller woud stop and either guess or make up a reply or just go with what seemd logical.

  The next time the story was told it would INCLUDE that little bridge.

  Consider this scripture:

  John 6:64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

  That is in TWO PARTS. The first part purports to be words of Jesus. The SECOND PART is an aside to the audience!

  How can the writer KNOW WHAT JESUS HAD IN HIS OWN MIND? The statement of what Jesus had known and how long he had known it is strictly a personal injection of the author into the narrative to smooth over difficulty.

  The same is true of the Garden of Gethsemane situation. The apostles fell asleep instead of being on guard. Jesus goes off BY HIMSELF and prays.

  The text gives us moment by moment details of what Jesus said and did.

  Ask yourself: How does the writer know all this? (The apostles were all asleep.)

  These oral stories are a lot of imagination mixed with a few passed on remembrances by others.
• 

  Chariklo

  Absolutely, Terry.

  How can the writer KNOW WHAT JESUS HAD IN HIS OWN MIND? The statement of what Jesus had known and how long he had known it is strictly a personal injection of the author into the narrative to smooth over difficulty.

  And similar comments occur again and again. So much for "all scripture is inspired of God". Like, how could Moses actually know what happened in the Garden of Eden. As if he really wrote all those early books.

  *sigh*
• 

  ixthis

  ... and your point aboud JUDAS is?
• 

  Chariklo

  I was commenting about Terry's latest post, Ixthis, not about Judas, there was no point about Judas.
• 

  transhuman68

  LOL. Ex-bishop John Shelby Spong wrote In Sins of Scripture that the whole Judas story is a myth that was added to the Jesus story later. He cites the fact that there are two different versions of Judas demise, and the obvious parallel with Joseph being sold to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver by his brother Judah; the Hebrew name Judah is Judas in the Greek language...

  http://johnshelbyspong.com/store/the-sins-of-scripture-exposing-the-bibles-texts-of-hate-to-reveal-the-god-of-love/
• 

  AGuest

  Universalism is not true.

  I don't know what you mean by "universalism" (where do you dear folks GET these words??), dear godrulz (again, peace to you!), but I do know, again, that you don't yet understand the love and mercy of Christ... nor what's written in the Bible.

  We can forgive evil doers

  Indeed, we SHOULD forgive evildoers... because Christ did. Even one that impaled alongside him. If he did it, then WE should do it as following in HIS footsteps. But since your comments indicate that, for you, the Bible is the "authority", why don't we consider what it says there?

  "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

  "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

  but this is different than eternal destiny issues.

  How so? Only ONE has been judged, thus far: the ruler of this world. NO ONE else has been judged. No one. And since WE are told to STOP judging, how can any of say what Judas' eternal destiny is? How can we even speak of such things? Joseph's brothers literally betrayed him, even sold him into slavery (a few of them literally wanted to kill him). Yet, he forgave them. Why? Because of HIS love for THEM... which SURPASSED their transgression as to HIM. You don't know what Judas' fate is, dear one, and those who say they do are lying. Indeed, it's not ever for us to consider, let alone speculate on. Why? Because it won't add or take away one cubit from OUR lifespans. All we should be concerned with, therefore, is whether WE are "walking" as WE should. Which includes forgiving others THEIR trespasses... AS we wish to be forgiven ours. The Law is a mirror, dear one, not a window.

  It would be unwise to let a serial killer who does not repent on the loose.

  It is not up to us, the Body of Christ, however, to see to such a matter. It is up to the "superior authorities," which is why the Most Holy One of Israel was established them: so that we DON'T have to judge. Such a person belongs to the world... and so it is up to the world to judge... and do with them as THEY will. Not us. The wisdom on OUR part, then, is to let such superior authorities do THEIR job, without interference FROM us. Otherwise, you're acting as part of the world. To his own master that evildoer will stand... or fall. That is what court systems, the agents of such authorities... are for.

  (BTW - My personal position is that it would be unwise to let a serial killer on the loose... ... repentant or otherwise. I have absolutely NO problem forgiving such a person - I neither judge them, nor condemn them to eternal life. I have NO problem with them being called into the Body of Christ. I would welcome them as I would anyone else. BUT... I would also reason with them that, given the chance that their offenses could be repeated, say, in a moment of "weakness", etc., do THEY truly think it wise to live among society, with no chaperone/restraint? If they say, yes, sure... then so be it. Hopefully, though, their "repentance" is born out in their realization that perhaps they DO need chaperoning/some restraint, so that they do not HARM another. It truly wouldn't be about their "sin"... but the potential do harm again. I digress.).

  We are in need of mercy and grace, but it is only extended to those who believe (Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36; those who love darkness and refuse to come to Him for life will perish; blanket forgiveness of everyone is not biblical).

  That is not accurate because, again, God shows mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it. So, it is not "only" so extended, albeit primarily extended. Even so, I think you might want to research the Greek meaning of the words "believe" and "reject" and "refuse." Because I think that if you do you will find that (2) Judas believed Christ was the Son of God; (2) he did not reject him, as Christ OR as the Son of God... but betrayed him... which is NOT the same thing (and please remember, PETER outright denied him, which IS a rejection, and yet, was forgiven); and (3) he did not refuse to come to Christ when he was called and chosen to do so. He knew EXACTLY who my Lord was: the Son of God. He simply let his greed... and Satan... lead him to do the unthinkable. Is he eternally damned for that? I realize that you and many others would LOVE for that to be the case, but the TRUTH is that we do not KNOW. None of us. Not a one.

  I also realize that you and others base this on your belief that Judas is "the son of destruction." I am not so sure, though, if what's written in the BIBLE is to be the "authority." Here's why:

  In certain Bible versions my Lord is recorded to have said, at John 17:12:

  NIV - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

  NLT - During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

  In others, though:

  NKJV - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

  YLT - when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.

  The GREEK, however, says: "son (huios, meaning son or descendant) of perdition (apoleia, meaning destroyer; destruction)". The Greek word "apoleia"... comes from the root word "apollymi", meaning to destroy, abolish, kill, perish, etc.).

  Big deal, so what? So, the Destroyer... or Destruction... is Apollyon/Abaddon. Death. The king of the pit/abyss. And the SON of the Destroyer/Destruction... is not Judas. That son... is Belial... who is called "Satan" and "Devil"... who chose Death (the Destroyer) as his "father", rather than Life (the Most Holy One of Israel). Just like Christ is King over the LIVING, Apollyon is king... over the dead. (Revelation 9:11). And it is with his "father" that Belial (Satan) is eventually abyssed for a time. (Revelation 20:1-3)

  And apparently I am not the only one to whom this truth has been revealed, because, according to Paul, the "son of perdition" (per most Bible versions and certainly the Greek) "will be REVEALED, he, the 'man of lawlessness'":

  RSV - "Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son ofperdition." 2 Thessalonians 2:3

  Unfortunately, the NIV and NLT mistranslate this verse:

  NIV - "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

  NLT - "Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed-the one who brings destruction."

  They DO this because their translators, rather than relying on HOLY SPIRIT to guide them, leaned upon their OWN understanding and ASSUMED that it was speaking of Judas, here. Thankfully, the footnote to the NLT version states: "Greek the son of destruction." Meaning, that it is the "son of destruction" who is spoken of here, as well. And since he is to be "revealed"... it cannot be Judas... as all pretty much know who HE is.

  The fact that many BELIEVE John 17:12 refers to Judas does not necessarily make it so. Again, we will all have to wait and see. If, however, one is of the mind... as you appear to be... that what the BIBLE says is paramount, then there is NO way one can conclude that Judas is the one being referred to as "the son... of perdition (destruction)."

  I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace... and ears, if you wish them, to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

  "Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, by which one can HEAR God, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... SPEAK, through His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... so as receive an ACCURATE knowledge as to all of these things and thus be led... into ALL truth... FREE!"

  YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with, and a slave of Christ,

  SA

  P.S. Please forgive the light blue misformatting at the end; don't know what that's all about and couldn't correct. Peace!