Association: Am i being lied to?

by roxanesophia 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  NewChapter

  I just have to add my support to Black Sheep's statement. It is important to completely understand the shades of meaning. The person you study with is being "technically" honest, but extremely dishonest about the spirit and practice of association.

  You CAN have "worldly" associates. There is no danger of DF/DA. But there are social sanctions. If a young person has non-JW friends, then parents of other JW young people will deem HER a bad associate also and not allow their children to hang out with her. If you have a party and invite JW's--you won't be able to comfortably invite non-JW's. If you do, JW's might then decide that you too are a bad associate. Bad associates are not only non-JW's, but JW's that don't follow "suggestions" on association. If you want to get married and you would like your best non-JW friend to stand with you--forget it. Not in the Kingdom Hall anyway. And you won't go to their weddings if they are in a church.

  But there is also something else to consider. There will be a NATURAL pulling away on your part and on the part of your non-JW friends. Think about it. If you immerse yourself in the JW culture, what will you have in common with them? They will want to talk about Christmas shopping. You'll be silent. They will want to talk about dating--what will you say? Will you celebrate their birthdays? Will you bless them when they sneeze? What happens when they offer an impromptu toast? This has happened to me a number of times. Imagine sitting at a table with a few friends and on offering a toast and you are the only one not participating. Go to a sports event with them and see how you feel when you don't take part in the national anthem. Can you go out with them to a bar or a movie? Can you even talk about movies or books or music? If you totally immerse yourself all you will have to discuss are meetings, bible study, service and other witnesses. They really won't want to hear about that. And if you don't immerse yourself you will be seen as weak in the congregation.

  When I became JW I pulled away from my friends because we had nothing to talk about. It just happened naturally. There was an article once that said that Israelites used to be separated from the nations by their distinctive dress (blue thread, fringe, no mixing of fabrics) and customs. The article said that today JW's are separated by their behavior. And that was a very good thing.

  So yes, you CAN have friends that are not JW in theory. In practice it is sticky and negative. The pressure will never EVER stop. If you make any mistakes they will immediately analyze your associates. And trust me, if you are having fun with a friend and it's meeting night, you really won't want to leave them to go sit in on a meeting that is boring, uncomfortable, and leaves you feeling guilty for having been with a worldly friend minutes before showing up at the hall. Also, you will be expected to witness to these friends. Nothing puts a wedge between friends like prosylitizing.

  Think about these things. Once you are baptized you can never go back. I have lost 20 years worth of friendships that I worked hard on. Now they are dust. And there is no changing that.

  NC
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  undercover

  My suspicion is I'm being told this because they know it's putting me off getting baptized and they have no real control over a study until they become a member so no one brings up the truth early in the game. Am I right in assuming that?

  Dead right.

  As others have already said, your study conductor isn't out and out lying... knowingly anyway. This religion is a cult. The deeper you become involved, the more they expect you to adhere to the conduct of the "group". Individuality is lost. You must conform to the standards and principles of the others to be fully accepted. It's not just pure peer pressure...it's pressure from the leadership that all must conform to the standards as set out by them to recieve God's blessing or acceptance. As long as people resist, they're made to feel unworthy or spiritually "weak".

  You may see some good things in this person...and maybe some good things in the people at the hall. I'm sure there are good people and good traits. But the second you verbalize that you don't want to get baptized or join the religion but want to remain friends with these people, watch how fast they drop you as a friend.
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  WhatWasIThinking

  She didn't lie. You can be friends with whoever you want and do whatever you want. The problem is you risk getting reproved or DF'd if you do anything the org doesn't want you to do. And while you can have non-JWs as friends, you will be expected to not talk to them, hang out with them, celebrate (holidays, birthdays, etc) with them, or really have any more than the minimum contact necessary to go about your life. Now if you start a study with them then you can talk to them, and if you get them dunked then you can hang out together with a bunch of uptight people who will judge your every action and word.
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  Honesty

  She lied to you.

  JW's are even warned about other JW's:

  Referring to yet another factor that fortified his integrity, David said: "I have notsat with men of untruth;and with those who hide what they are I do not come in. I have hated the congregation of evildoers, and with thewicked ones I do not sit." (Psalm 26:4, 5) David simply would not sit with the wicked. He hated bad associations.

  13 What about us? Do we refuse to sit with men of untruth through television programs, videos, motion pictures, Internet sites, or other means? Do we stay away from those who hide what they are? Some at school or at our place of employment may feign friendship with us for devious purposes. Do we really want to develop close ties with those who do not walk in God’s truth? Behind claims of sincerity, apostates may also hide their intent to draw us away from serving Jehovah. What if there are some in the Christian congregation who live double lives? They too conceal what they truly are. Jayson, now serving as a ministerial servant, had friends like that in his youth. About them, he says: "One day one of them said to me: ‘It doesn’t matter what we do now because when the new system comes, we’re just going to be dead. We’re not going to know that we missed anything.’ That kind of talk came as a wake-up call for me. I do not want to be dead when the new system comes." Jayson wisely cut off his association with such ones.

  DECEMBER 1, 2004 WATCHTOWER

  PAGES 15-16

  PARAGRAPHS 12-13
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  Yan Bibiyan

  I do not want to be dead when the new system comes.

  Ha-ha! Had to laugh at this one^^^^.

  Millions who once lived and are now dead, were convinced that they will live to see the new system.

  Jayson, buddy, there ain't no new system. It's a shameless scam pulled by the greatest pyramid scheme in religion.
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  dgp

  "Pyramid scheme". I like that
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  outsmartthesystem

  You are most definitely being lied to. I am still a baptized witness. I am 31 years old and have bee loitering on this website for over a year now. I still go to some meetings but am making my slow but steady exodus. This is actually my first post. I am a little surprised that your study conductor worded it like that though. Most would say "you can have whatever friends you want"......and then point you towards the scriptures that say that bad association spoils useful habits or friendship with the world is enmity with God. Study conductors are hopeful that you will come to your own conclusion that you need to dump your "worldly" friends once you are far enough along in your study. This will definitely become a contentious point if you were to progress toward baptism. You will be urged more and more (in a friendly manner) that your true friends are within the KH. But they won't let it stop you from getting baptized. Once you are baptized, the counsel you receive will be more pointed. At that point...instead of telling you that you can have whatever friends you want....it is more like "well theoretically...yes you can do that....but obviously you aren't as devoted to serving Jehovah as we thought you were". As was already mentioned in one post...your conducter will level with you and tell you flat out that you need to ditch those friends. Then a more experience sister will do the same. If you still haven't ditched your friends expect an elder or two to bring out that you are thinking independently and trusting in your own heart instead of in Jehovah. Don't be surprised if a "local needs" part is given during the service meeting on Thursday night...and that part is all about the dangers of having worldly friends. That's what happens if the elders perceive a problem. You aren't called out on stage....but the "local needs" problem is addressed in a talk given from the platform. Since the talk being given is about "local needs"......the congregation can easily deduce that SOMEONE among them is hanging out with worldly people. Then after the meeting all the cliques get together and before long everyone knows that talk was directed at you. From that point on....you won't be shunned....but you will be looked upon with scorn. Some in the congregation won't associate with you any more than to say hi because...well...you've proven that you prefer "bad association". Some will talk behind your back about your worldly tendencies. All will still....in an indirect manner....try to get you to see that you should let go of your worldly friends because your "true" friends are inside the kingdom hall.

  The F & D S does not like it when the term "theocratic warfare" is used. It is a term coined many many decades ago and refers to doing whatever is necessary to further "the work of Jehovah". Be it lying, covering over the truth or whatever. Your conducter may very well view telling you that little fib as doing only what was necessary to gain a new sheep for Jehovah. Do me a favor. Ask your conducter what the Jehovah's Witness definition of a lie is. She should tell you that it is telling a non-truth to someone that deserves to know the truth. Therefore lying to the police in a country where the preaching work is under ban would not, by witness standards, count as a lie. The problem with that is.....who qualifies as someone that deserves to know the truth? That remains undefined. Since you are unbaptized...perhaps your conductor felt it was ok to tell you that since in the long run....if it leads to your baptism...then it was for your own good. Therefore at the time...you did not deserve to know the truth and she did not tell you a "lie".

  outsmartthesystem
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  NewChapter

  Welcome Outsmart! I haven't read your entire message yet, but saw this was your first post and wanted to say hello.

  NC
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  FirstLastName

  I was born in and not allowed any wordly friends. I had girls who were my "friends" at school that could not understand why we could never hang out.

  Even music you listen to can be bad associtation. I remember a talk from the platform, were the elder said that "when we listen to music we are inviting that band, or person, into our house. What if Jesus was a guest at our house - would he approve ?"

  And as stated before, although she is not "lying" - she is definately not telling the "truth", cause you CAN be friends with anyone - but " would Jesus want to be friends with that person?"
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  roxanesophia

  THANK YOU!
  
  
  
  
  I'd like to reply to people individually, but given the amount of responses, my post would be massive. But EVERYONE gave such helpful responses and I honestly appreciate it. Definitely a great thread for anyone who comes into the org and has the same doubts I do. I've been having anxiety attacks over this issue because I thought I was making real friends at the hall but I feel it getting colder because i should be out in the field service. But I've stopped mentioning it, etc. Now that I'm bringing up my doubts, they're saying anything to sugar coat the religion. I really needed to hear it from people who know best, I'm definitely not IN the cult yet, and I'm also being told nothing will change when I am. That contradicts everything I've ever read here, and I'm not going to believe one person over 20 + people.
  
  Prior to me coming right out and saying I don't like the idea of JW's only associate with JW's, I told her I had worldly (UGH if i never hear that word again, it'll be too soon!) friends sending really heartfelt emails, and the JW's turn this around, implying i don't have good friends, and say:
  
  "What kind of person even cares what religious beliefs their friend has? They should want to be friends with you regardless of what you believe. Heaps of people we work with want to be friends with us, they don't care about religion."
  Then i asked "So you'd be friends with people at work?"
  
  Then she says, "No." and rattled off scriptures.
  
  But then sometimes she sweetens it with "But it's a conscience matter." as if to say they are still completely in control.
  
  
  She's also said in the past "You've dumped your worldly friends, but you're not with us yet, so this is Jehovah testing you now."

  She'll mention things like "You have to start coming with us." when talking about social outings, then i'm never actually invited. What's this? Is it reminding me that I'm not entitled to the association yet?
  
  
  And another time we were discussing the unbaptized publisher requirements and we got to the part about association and I proudly boast "YEAH I'VE DUMPED THE WORLDLIES" and she says "That includes people on the internet." Well, I hadn't done that.
  
  
  And just other things I've heard, from people who tell it like it is. I say I have no family in it, and they're like "Oh, that makes it really hard." Well that just totally contradicts that i can be a JW and maintain Non JW relationships with ease.
  
  
  So I KNEW she was lying to me. I just appreciate all the confirmation.