by Pika_Chu 77 Replies latest social humour
But how does one differentiate God speaking vs that person's own internal thoughts/subconcious?
You don't. It's the same thing. Heinlein's Valentine Michael Smith had it right. "Thou art god." God isn't someone, something, somewhere ELSE. He is us and we are him and so is everything else. This is where theists go wrong. They push him away, up into the sky, invisible and impotent in all practical ways.
IMO, of course.
@Psac, like I said before, if he spoke to us, and I'm not talking about personal revelation. I mean, if he talked to all of us, directly, we would have a degree of objectivity. I know that you exist because I interact with you on the Internet, and others do as well. If someone asks you a question, you answer it. I'm going to bet that you exist because I am not the only one who hears you. Normally, people don't have to try very hard to prove someone exists; it's usually much easier. If God wants people to believe in him, why hide away in another dimension, invisible, imperceptible, and speaking to us indirectly by giving "signs" and "his word" and only talking to SOME of us? The mere fact that so many atheists exist in the world (and given that their atheism is based on rationality), raises serious questions as to why God only talks to people selectively, especially people WHO ALREADY believe in him. What we expect shapes what we see.
That is a valid view point, and indeed, like I mentioned before, it certainly would make a statement.
I have to be honest and say that I don't think it would make the statement most people say it would UNLESS God came in like a "gangbuster".
I know that you don't see the bible as an authority, but lets use it for just a moment and realise that, God did do just that in the OT and what good did that do? Did the Hebrews, even thought they had no doubts of his existence and had even seen his miracles up close and personal, keep his laws? obey his commandments? or did they, the first chance they got, "build a golden calf and hit the orgy scene?".
How about Revelations? How afer 1000 years of being with God and Christ SOME will still revolt?
Not to mention when he walked amongst Us as His Son we did we do?, well....
I agree with you that God taking the initiative would make things easier for Most non-believers ( I think a certain element would probably satill not believe), but I don't think God "sees it that way" and, historry being what it is, God is probably right.
I don't think that it is an issue of God WANTING us the believe in Him, IF God exists I don't think our disbelief makes that much of a difference for his existence.
I think that God wants us to come to him out of free will by faith, not blind faith, but by faith in what he DOES show us.
I just think that, for some, what God does show us is NOT nearly enough.
You don't. It's the same thing. Heinlein's Valentine Michael Smith had it right. "Thou art god." God isn't someone, something, somewhere ELSE. He is us and we are him and so is everything else. This is where theists go wrong. They push him away, up into the sky, invisible and impotent in all practical ways.
IMO, of course.
Well put MS.
I do agree that too many believers "push God away" to a place that they can't know God.
Christ said the Kingdom of God is in US ALL and the first step is for US to relaize that yes, God is in US all, a living, breathing, personal God that loves Us deeply, that speaks to Us and Guides Us with love, compassion and wants Us to Know Him and by Knowing Him, we truly know OURSELVES.
Pika_Chu, to be fair, people who say they were athiests at the time have had "religious experiences" that converted them.
However, anyone who assumes that such an experience must be caused by an invisible being communicating to them rather than simply a vivid hallucenation or waking dream is not a big fan of Ockham's razor.
I know, Fadeout. That's what I'm saying. Some people convert to theism after being atheists, but their accounts of personal revelation are subjective. People will believe in anything if it has "revealed" itself to them. But if each account is subjective, who's to say it's not confiend to one's own mind. Such personal feelings, without outside verification, are more than likely constructs of the mind. No supernatural explanation needed. God shouldn't be this hard to prove if other people aren't hard to prove.
@Psac, I mentioned God, wanting to be worshipped, would mean he would make himself quite obvious. To be worshipped, he must be known, and, to be known, he must make it fairly easy to know him. There wouldn't be so many rational people questioning his existence. I rarely, if ever, question your existence, the existence of my friends, or the existence of my own father. But God makes himself questionable by hiding inside the universe/multiverse/creation. And I see your point about people turning away from God even with him revealing himself, but becoming and atheist and "turning your back on God" are two different things. Children do not "turn their backs" on the tooth fairy when they realise there is a perfectly good natural/human explanation that knocks out the old superstitious belief. They simply cease to believe. Turning your back on someone implies they are still there and you are simply not acknowledging them.
I have to be honest and say that I don't think it would make the statement most people say it would UNLESS God came in like a "gangbuster".
I know that you don't see the bible as an authority, but lets use it for just a moment and realise that, God did do just that in the OT and what good did that do? Did the Hebrews, even thought they had no doubts of his existence and had even seen his miracles up close and personal, keep his laws? obey his commandments? or did they, the first chance they got, "build a golden calf and hit the orgy scene?".
How about Revelations? How afer 1000 years of being with God and Christ SOME will still revolt?
Not to mention when he walked amongst Us as His Son we did we do?, well....
psac, please remember you're building an argument on a presupposition that we don't accept, not even for a moment, thereby sawing off the branch on which you sit. If we can't accept the Bible accounts that claim god unambiguously interacted with mankind in the past, then we have no real history of men rejecting or revolting against a truly divine being who provides unambigous evidence of his presence. That chain of logic is only as strong as the first link, which is broken to us skeptics.
peace, friend.
SBC
SBC,
Quite correct, I used it as an example simply because it is a POR that we all can "go from", but you are correct.
My bad *slaps himsel in the ass*.
Considering what we KNOW of human nature, how many of us truly think that God SIMPLY speaking to ALL of US would make beleivers of ALL of us?
@Psac, I mentioned God, wanting to be worshipped, would mean he would make himself quite obvious. To be worshipped, he must be known, and, to be known, he must make it fairly easy to know him. There wouldn't be so many rational people questioning his existence. I rarely, if ever, question your existence, the existence of my friends, or the existence of my own father. But God makes himself questionable by hiding inside the universe/multiverse/creation. And I see your point about people turning away from God even with him revealing himself, but becoming and atheist and "turning your back on God" are two different things. Children do not "turn their backs" on the tooth fairy when they realise there is a perfectly good natural/human explanation that knocks out the old superstitious belief. They simply cease to believe. Turning your back on someone implies they are still there and you are simply not acknowledging them.
I can't tell you WHY God choose to reveal himself HOW he does, I mean I could but that would be me saying soemthing and no reason for you to believe it, whatever it could be.
I don't have an answer for you, not one that would do I think.
I don't subscribe to any view that can lead to the "God of the gaps" so I won't even try to explain that God is the only thing that seems to account for the things we KNOW we OUGHT to do and be.
@Psac, Are all people who know you believers of you? At least, everyone you talk to? Maybe they don't listen to you or take your advice, but everyone who actually knows you would not question your existence.
@Psac, Are all people who know you believers of you? At least, everyone you talk to? Maybe they don't listen to you or take your advice, but everyone who actually knows you would not question your existence.
I think that everyone that knows me knows I exist, but do I exist because they know me or because I exist?
I know that God exists because I know His Son in who God has revealed Himself but doe sthat mean God exists because I know him? or do I know Him because he exists?
I don't even know what I just wrote, LOL !!
