@journey-on:
djeggnog: I don't think I have ever replied to one of your posts, nor have I ever pm'd you. But, please hear me out this one time.
Ok.
You sound sincere.
But, you sound blinded.
How so?
Did you know that thousands are leaving the Watchtower Society (not necessarily God) every year. You have probably been told that it is because of apostasy or wrong-doing. The WTS wants you to believe that, so they harp on it and fill their literature with it.
It's the truth. People are being disfellowshipped for gross wrongdoing and for other things like apostasy; this is all true.
But, have you ever thought it is because these people are awakening and are being "called out"because of their good hearts? They can no longer watch as a group of men claim to be God's representative mediator and watch as families are torn asunder, and more and more false doctrines are being forced upon them.
To whom do you think you're speaking? Do you think me to be someone totally clueless, someone that merely calls himself one of Jehovah's Witnesses? (You're not.) I don't know what this "group of men" to whom you refer that claims to be "God's representative mediator," but if, by this, you are referring to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, what you say isn't true: They don't consider themselves to be anyone's "representative mediator."
Look: The word "mediator" has a meaning, and the way you use this word in your post suggests to me that you don't quite know what the word means. The Bible teaches the Lord Jesus Christ is the only "mediator between God and men," the "mediator of a new covenant." (1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 9:15) How do you figure that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses -- if this is what you meant by the expression, "group of men" -- fancies itself as being some "representative mediator"? The Bible doesn't speak of any "representative mediator" and Jehovah's Witnesses have never taught anything any "representative mediator," for such doesn't exist.
Perhaps they understand that the WTS has become a whore....yes, part of the harlot that the Bible speaks about.
It is evident to me that you do not know what Babylon the Great, pictured as a "great harlot that sits on many waters with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication," meaning spiritual fornication, and who sits "upon a scarlet-colored wild beast" having "seven heads and ten horns," at Revelation 17:1-3 -- the "whore" to whom you refer -- has a symbolic meaning that refers to false religion that grips all of the nations of the world. To claim that Revelation 17:1-3 is referring to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society or Jehovah's Witnesses themselves is ridiculous.
You are naive thinking you can come here (against specific instructions not to), count time, and keep "your suit of armor" on tight against real truth. If your heart is truly directed toward Truth, that is why you continue coming here and continue fighting against what you know in your heart is the sound of being called out of that whore of a religion.
What specific instructions do you refer? You want to believe JWN to be an "apostates-only" website, and I'm not interested in getting in the way of what you might think JWN to be, but I don't believe JWN to be an "apostates-only" website. You want to believe I come to JWN to "count time" and I have no interest in interfering with your thought process because I know well that you are free to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, if that is what you choose to believe.
The principle at 1 Corinthians 14:38 seems apropos here: "If anyone is ignorant, he continues ignorant." I'll just say anyway, not that you will hear me or believe me -- which is fine! -- that I cannot in good conscience count the time I spend here on JWN, for I come here, in part, as a diversion, that is, for entertainment's sake.
We try not to look at the rank and file individuals, but rather look at the head of the snake where the venom is.
Who exactly is this "snake"?
My heart goes out to you because it is a hard thing to look at Truth when you have been told Lies and finally see it and realize it is not what you thought.
Please don't bother giving me your heart; I'll take a listening ear over a calloused heart any day.
You have a PM.
Ok.
@caliber:
This thread again reminds me why ... Brevity is the Soul of Wit ..
The proverb 'brevity is the soul of wit' means that articulate and intelligent communication (speech and writing) should use few and wisely chosen words
No, it doesn't. When Polonius indicated in William Shakespeare's play that 'since brevity is the soul of wit, I'll be brief and just tell you that Hamlet is stark-raving mad,' or words to this effect, he wasn't talking about intelligence (wit) at all, but essentially saying, "I'm going to just tell you, bottom-line," or "straight-up," in the vernacular that many of the kids use today: "Hamlet is crazy!"
You might want me to spend time editing my posts so that they are easier for you to digest, but I might write a single post addressed to many people, just as @flipper does, which I one thing I've found to be a characteristic of many of his posts here on JWN, and, as I've said in a different post to this thread, I'm saying again: I might direct a post to someone, but I write to benefit the lurkers since I do not expect many of those to whom my posts are directed to receive anything I say kindly because of their hatred or bias against Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't want to talk to you about your take on Hamlet; let's talk about the subject of this thread, namely, 'losing your life and that of your children if you don't come back [to Jehovah]."
also Ecl. 12:12 .. My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.Who has published more books than the WT?
So you take Ecclesiastes 12:12 and then apply what this verse says to the many publications that have been produced used by Jehovah's Witnesses? Maybe it will help you to understand what Solomon's point was in this verse by referring to the previous two verses at Ecclesiastes 12:10, 11:
"The congregator sought to find the delightful words and the writing of correct words of truth. The words of the wise ones are like oxgoads, and just like nails driven in are those indulging in collections of sentences; they have been given from one shepherd. As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh."
So what was Solomon's point along with what Ecclesiastes 12:12 says and in context with Shakespeare? That "brevity is the soul of wit" has nothing at all to do with collection of sentences uttered by wise ones, the divine instruction given to us by the "one shepherd," Jehovah God, for it is "wearisome to the flesh" or frustrating to read one's focus the reading of many books, which are merely the opinions and conclusions of humans which often contradict one another. Solomon's words cannot rightly be applied to the publications produced by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society since they aren't new books, per se, but which are essentially commentaries on just one book that contains "correct words of truth" that are like oxgoads to those reading it, studying it and learning from it, the book known as the "Holy Bible."
You can only "leave Jehovah' by leaving the Kingdom Hall .. if God lives at the hall !
I don't recall suggesting that Jehovah God lives at the Kingdom Hall. In fact, I know for a fact that He doesn't make the Kingdom Hall His place of dwelling. The fact is, @caliber, that Jehovah doesn't dwell in any earthly building, nor does He dwell in the skies above our heads, nor anywhere in this universe of ours, He's bigger than this! You were just quoting Solomon and I note that you quoted Stephen's words at Acts 7:48, 49, but here's the text from which Stephen quoted at 2 Chronicles 6:18:
"But will God truly dwell with mankind upon the earth? Look! Heaven, yes, the heaven of the heavens themselves, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built?
If God were in a Kingdom Hall, He would be omnipresent, but God is not everywhere. Leave the solar system, past all of the stars to where this universe of ours ends, if it so ends, and thus cross from this literal physical dimension of ours into the spiritual dimension where the spiritual heavens is, and there is where one would find God, in another dimension. Isaiah 63:15 says "Look from heaven and see out of your lofty abode of holiness and beauty." This is the heaven where God makes His home, where Jehovah dwells in person. God's throne, "the throne of the Majesty," is located within "the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man," a "perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation." (Hebrews 8:1, 2; 9:11)
So, then, if it were possible for anyone to get out of our universe, out of this creation, that is to say, out of our physical dimension, and enter the spiritual heavens, you would find Jehovah in the spiritual dimension where He resides in person, you would see the palatial home that Jehovah himself put up, the palace where He lives and thrones in the heavens, that is "not of this creation."
You quoted something from Hamlet, and a couple of verses from the Bible, but why? What was your point? Did you think by so doing that this would give testimony to your being smart? an intellectual perhaps? If so, all of this may have served your purpose for some, but it didn't work for me, so if there as a point you sought to make, you misfired, so exactly what point did you wish to make? The brevity of your post was so 'witty,' well... maybe you get my point here and maybe you won't get it.
@The Finger:
I was really referring to the 1974 Watchtower August 15th page 507 where it says....
Ok.
Also the "Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose" Page 51.
Why? This publication was published back in 1959, while this is 2011. What sense does it make for you to be pulling out old quotes from obsolete publications now out-of-print that Jehovah's Witnesses do not and may not have ever believed? Do you wish to win a debate using old quotes? If so, do this with someone else, for you sound like someone arguing with me about something I had once written in a book between February 18, 1930 and August 23, 2006, as to Pluto being a planet when Pluto is no longer considered to be a planet. What's old is old, and recognizing this fact is a good thing.
"Pastor Russell and his associates were aware of the scripture at Matthew 24:14, which reads: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come." Just how this could be finished by 1914 was not clear, but these Witnesses intensified their program even further"
Before his death in 1916, Russell and his companions did the best they could with the information that had been available to them at that time, and the intensification of the preaching campaigns underway in those days leading up to the year 1914 successfully drew attention to the year when the Gentile times had come to an end, which is still true. Russell may have hoped that Armageddon would have come in that year, but he knew in 1915 that what he had hoped was not to be, even as there were many among Jehovah's Witnesses in the years that led up to the year 1975 that were disappointed that Armageddon did not come in that year, but those of us that have made Jehovah our confidence have not dedicated themselves to a date, but have dedicated themselves to Jehovah. These have put their faith in God and in His son, Jesus Christ, believing that the end of this system of things will come in God's due time despite those that would subject us to ridicule for our faith. (2 Peter 3:3, 4)
I know there was a thread sometime ago with regard to what Russell taught I think it was a thread started by Essan if you wish to research it more.
I don't care about what Russell may have taught when he was alive, for Jehovah's Witnesses have since moved on past many of the things that Russell believed when he was alive, things which he might have difficulty accepting at first, but even he would have to abandon what things Jehovah has revealed through his visible organization.
You want to be frozen in time, fine, but Jehovah's Witnesses are not static, but are members of a progressive organization,
@djeggnog wrote:
JWN is a website that is frequented by (1) active Jehovah's Witnesses like myself that are not apostates, (2) other active Jehovah's Witnesses that are apostates, but who continue their association with us out of selfishness because they believe their practicing such hypocrisy will prevent the loss of association with family members that are still active Jehovah's Witnesses, (3) folks that have formerly studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, (4) folks that continue to actively study the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, (5) atheists and (6) apostates.
@serenitynow! wrote:
I find this argument to be interesting. So because JWN is not frequented by only persons who are apostate, then it is ok for an active JW to post here?
This is not what I said. I've quoted just above your words what it was I said. What I said, in a nutshell, is that JWN is not an "apostates-only" website.
And, on the rare chance that the WT/GB illustration is not sufficient, and you need a "different" authority- there is actually a Bible verse to support the illustrations- Galatians 5:9 indicates that a little leaven ferments the whole lump.
You've totally distorted the meaning of the apostle Paul's words at Galatians 5:9, since Paul were herer referring to those in the congregation that had been using persuasion to adulterate Christianity by teaching the importance of circumcision, when "neither circumcision is of any value nor is uncircumcision, but faith operating through love is," which is the context of the apostle's words at Galatians 5:6-9. Am I alone supposed to be "the whole lump" in your interpretation of Galatians 5:9 or what? I'm merely asking this rhetorically; please don't answer this question because this has gotten silly enough.
I'm not telling you not to enjoy this site DJ, but come on, let's be real. Even if just one person on this site is an apostate, according to The Society/WT/GB, and even the Bible this is an apostate site.
For anyone to believe what you say here would make them, in my mind, a retard. I hope no one reading this statement of yours will believe this statement of yours to have any grain of truth to it whatsoever. The real test is whether @Simon decides it to be in his interest to make JWN an apostates-only website. When he does this, I'm gone, but until he should do this, I'm here. Deal with it.
As to your illustrations, I would discard them both. What we have been talking about here would be more like a white kid told you a particular school has a "whites-only" policy, that blacks aren't permitted to play basketball after-hours at a particular school. Now let's say that you happen to be black and you believe this information to be true until a month later you notice several blacks as well as some whites and Hispanics playing full court basketball after-hours at this very same school, with two referees on the court and with many black and Hispanic spectators in attendance. If there should be just one black kid playing on this basketball court, or just one Hispanic kid, then how can it possibly be true that this particular school has a "whites-only" policy?
If I were black, and you happened to be that "white kid" in this illustration, I would conclude that you have an agenda in that you would rather non-whites lay basketball elsewhere and that this "whites-only" policy was your very own policy. To say that you do not have an agenda would be an understatement, but perhaps I can put this in a way that the kids might put it: You're busted. Or, to put this in the way that I might put it: What kind of a fool do you think me to be?
@djeggnog
