Paul, leading authority on Christianity, does NOT quote Jesus!

by Terry 204 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Terry

  If memory serves correctly....in the Ebionite writings it was revealed that Paul wanted to marry the Saducee High Priest's daughter and pretty much did his bidding to suck up to the old man. Attending Rabbinical school, the Ebionites tell us, Paul was unable to follow the form of reasoning used by rabbinical form to interpret scripture and so, he was kicked out.

  The High Priest didn't think Saul/Paul was good enough for his daughter and the engagement was called off.

  Paul was embittered about this and in a state of deep depression set out for Damascus. On the way there, Saul seems to have had a life changing encounter with an idea that pretty much made the Saducee High Priest obsolete.

  Take it for what it is worth.
• 

  Terry

  Featured like him, like him with friends possess'd,
  Desiring this man's art and that man's scope,
  With what I most enjoy contented least;
  Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
  Haply I think on thee, and then my state,
  Like to the lark at break of day arising
  From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven's gate;
  For thy sweet love remember'd such wealth brings
  That then I scorn to change my state with kings.

  As Bill would say...
• 

  The Finger

  do you believe this writer more than the bible writers Terry
• 

  AGuest

  I keep bringing up Colossians 1:23, and no one ever really addresses it. If Paul's focus, his gospel, was on Jesus of Nazareth, how could this good news have already been preached in all creation under heaven, and why did Paul say that he "BECAME A MINISTER" of this already-preached gospel?

  The Greek word used for "was preached"... kerysso... is in the "aorist" tense, dear ProdSon (peace to you!), which is characterized by:

  "... its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most [Bible] translations." http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Col&c=1&v=23&t=KJV#conc/23

  In addition, it is a participle mood, meaning that it could have been a word that ended in "ed"... to denote past tense... OR "ing" to denote present (and continuing) tense. So that the verse COULD have stated:

  "... that good news which you heard that [is] PREACHED to every creature/creation under heaven..." (with Paul being slightly facetious, because there was no word "was", as in it has already occurred); OR

  "... that good news which you have heard [by] this PREACHING to every creature/creation under heaven..." (which makes more sense); OR

  "... that good news which you have heard, that [is] PREACHED to every creature/creation under heaven..." (which makes the MOST sense).

  Please note that although the word "which" is rendered twice here in many Bible version, the Greek words are not the same. The first, "hos", can mean "which"; however, the second, "ho", never means "which" but rather "this, these, that."

  Meaning, someone guessed that the phrase was actually past tense ("was preached")... and, in all probability... was wrong. But Biblican scribes are known to BE wrong, so...

  That it WASN'T in regard to something that had already occurred is borne out in Paul's words, NOT that he "became" a minister, as in of something that had already taken place, but "am made"... or "have become"... "am finished" (as in personally completed, having been personally incomplete before)... which is the meaning of the Greek word "ginomai", which is also an aorist verb (and so, the tense also assumed).

  I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Band on the Run

  I just recalled something. One of my favorite books of all time and certainly deal with religion is Katzenzakis, The Last Temptation Christ, which Martin Scorcese directed and starred Wilhelm Defoe as Jesus. The book which many churches ban is clearly fiction. He emphasizes the humanity of Christ. In the account, he has Jesus have a psychotic episode during the crucifixion just before his death. Jesus is assured by a young girl angel that God will not require the sacrifice since Jesus proved he was willing. Jesus walks away and has a marriage to Mary Magdalene. She died in childbirth I think. He moves on to Mary, sister of Lazarus. They have children. He does his carpentry. Late in life, he overhears a stranger talking about how Jesus of Nazareth died on the cross. He is very upset about this fabrication and pulls the stranger to him. He yells that what he is saying is not true. Somehow we find out this person is Paul. They don't recognize each other. Jesus is stunned that people are hearing this version of the story. Paul asserts he has preached it across the world and will continue to do so. Paul tells him it doesn't matter whether he died or not. He will preach the gospel of the crucified Jesus b/c the world needs it.

  I am too lazy to reread it right now to keep all the details. It is a moving vignette. Jesus realizes that He was meant to die and prays to God to change the result. He comes out of his hallucination on the cross, fully aware of what his life could have been, and dies triumphantly. Aside from religious themes, it is one of the best written books I have encountered. Anyone interested in the historical Jesus should be better informed by this novel.

  The book is not written in a sacrilegous tone. Neither is the film. Katzenzakis does not say the hallucination events ever occurred in real life but Jesus was human and the sheer pain and agony of Roman crucifizion would cause mental aberration.
• 

  PSacramento

  The last temptation of Christ was a very good premis, it was loosly based on when Jesus asked God why he had "foresaken him".

  The last temptation of Christ, by Satan, was Jesus that Jesus was NOT the Christ, didn't NEED to be the Christ as was just a "lowly human".

  There is nothing biblical about it per say, but it is quite an interesting premis.
• 

  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  "RE: the circumsision of Timothy issue:
  Tim was Jewish ( in part) and he got circumssied because of that.
  Paul was adamant that GENTILES NOT NEED to be circumsized, but Jews were still Jewish."

  I'd accept that as a JW, but that's not the way the Bible says it. Paul circumcised Timothy "on account of the Jews", it doesn't say that he "circumcised Timothy because Timothy was part Jew and Jewish Christians needed to be circumcised while Gentile Christians did not need to be circumcised". Since Timothy was half Gentile Greek, perhaps Paul only half circumcised him.

  Of course, if circumcision were required, this would mean that Jewish Christians would still be required to observe ALL of the law. Would any Christian today with a fraction of Jewish heritage be required to be circumcised in accordance with Mosaic Law? Why did Jesus die again? Just to free Gentiles from the Law?

  I understand that contrived explanations of what the Bible "really teaches" work fine for many people, but they aren't logical and decisive since they're outside of scripture. It's no wonder that there are thousands of Christian factions that argue and hate one another.
• 

  PSacramento

  I'd accept that as a JW, but that's not the way the Bible says it. Paul circumcised Timothy "on account of the Jews", it doesn't say that he "circumcised Timothy because Timothy was part Jew and Jewish Christians needed to be circumcised while Gentile Christians did not need to be circumcised". Since Timothy was half Gentile Greek, perhaps Paul only half circumcised him.

  LOL @ half cirumcision !!

  For Timothy, a jew, to be accepted in the synagogue he had to be snipped and being Jewish he was under that part of the law if he wanted to enter the synagogue.

  Of course, if circumcision were required, this would mean that Jewish Christians would still be required to observe ALL of the law. Would any Christian today with a fraction of Jewish heritage be required to be circumcised in accordance with Mosaic Law? Why did Jesus die again? Just to free Gentiles from the Law?

  It was not required for the gentiles.

  I understand that contrived explanations of what the Bible "really teaches" work fine for many people, but they aren't logical and decisive since they're outside of scripture. It's no wonder that there are thousands of Christian factions that argue and hate one another.

  Yes, misunderstandings can lead to even wars, sad but true.
• 

  AGuest

  when Jesus asked God why he had "foresaken him".

  I realize that this is a bit off-topic and apologize in advance to the OP (peace to you, dear Terry!), but I wanted to respond to dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!) on it.

  Our Lord said this in response to the removal of the "hedge" that had been placed around him all this time. God's spirit DID leave him, but only for that momentus time. The Adverary's ACCUSATION against our Lord.... against ALL of mankind, in fact... is "skin in behalf of skin and ALL a man has he WILL give on behalf of his soul (the body of flesh)." The initial accusation was made as to Job (because Adham had shown the accusation to be true), but it is our Lord who had to respond... to negate Adham's "reply." Thus, the Most Holy One of Israel's plea: "Be wise, my SON, and make my heart glad, that I may give a REPLY to the one who is taunting me."

  That taunter is the one called "Satan" and "Devil," who was hurled OUT of the spiritual "temple" shortly after our Lord was "caught away" to the Father's throne to offer his sacrifice... which was PERFECT and therefore acceptable... because he showed the "taunt" of Satan to be a LIE:

  "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

  Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

  “Now have comethe salvation and the power andthe kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death." Revelation 12:1-11

  The Most Holy One of Israel HAD to remove His spirit to ensure that our Lord's "reply" was argument-proof. So that the Accuser wouldn't... couldn't... say, as he did with Job:

  “Does [he] fear God for nothing? Have you not put a hedge around him... and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands..."

  That acknowledgment was followed by the TAUNT to the Most Holy One of Israel, which taunt we are ALL challenged to respond to:

  “A man will give all he has for his own life. But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

  The Adversary was not allowed to take Job's life. He could touch everything Job owned... and loved... but not Job himself. So, Job didn't provide the FULL reply to that taunt. Our Lord, however, did. And, praise JAH, that he did so can "cover" for those of US... who cannot.

  I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace!

  YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ, the Lamb who was slaughtered for OUR sins,

  SA
• 

  designs

  Doesn't Theology makes loads of sense-

  God leaves someone exposed who also claims to be God by removing the God Spirit factor so that a minor character can whomp him.....

  Sign me up, I want to be part of that club........