Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt 195 Replies latest jw friends

  • tec

    You know, Bohm, my posts to you aren't that long, lol... they might seem it, but that's because I'm also quoting you :)

    Sorry about the snake/serpent thing, i don mean anything particular about it.

    No problem. Perhaps I am reading something into it that isn't there. (assumption)

    I repeat that we are both assuming things into what we have of this story. Even in all that you just wrote to me, one thing jumped out at once:

    I would think the snake was the real source of problems, given that it wanted worship.

    There is nothing in that story that even implies that Satan wanted worship for himself. (so I won't answer your questions about worship) I think you are assuming based on what others have told you about the account, and/or the nature of Satan.

    I also make assumptions, and I will tell you by what reason I can make those assumptions: Christ.

    Christ is the image of God - even the book that contains the Adam/Eve story says this, even that book says to look to HIM over the scriptures leading us TO him. So everything I read, I base my thoughts about it on the image and truth that Christ gave us. This is how I can say that even though I don't understand the reason for something that happened - even if I might have done it differently with my own children (even though that is not a fair example, since I don't know everything at work) - God did what was just and right, and not without mercy.

    Yes, I would have locked 'the gun' away, keeping it from my kids - even though I can't lock every gun in existence away from them. But there comes a time in life when even we have to allow our children (often once grown/or teenagers) to make their own mistakes, and suffer the consequences of their own mistakes. But while death is a permanent state from our pov, as in we can do nothing to change it... it is not a permanent state to God. I don't think that can be ignored.

    Why did i create the tree of knowledge in such a way that it imediately affected the subject, and not just kick into effect like 20 hours later? Thats a rather strange design descision, and i dont understand it.

    We are not looking at the tree of knowledge of good/bad in the same way. I know you understand cause/effect. Think of eating from the tree like reading a book, or seeing a movie (but all at once/like a download). Once you know it, you cannot un-know it. They ate (read, saw, downloaded) = they knew. Just like that.

    Therefore i would have known when satan wanted to challenge me and i would have had that conversation with him

    Unless Satan gave no sign of it before this act, and had never disobeyed before this.

    it seem far more natural to assume God just changed his mind or altered the tree or that eve believed she has misheard God.

    It doesn't seem more natural to me at all... perhaps it does to you, but I don't know why this assumption seems more natural to you than any other? So I make assumptions to get God 'off the hook' and you make assumptions to put God 'on the hook'.

    But again, I know where my assumptions come from (Christ). Where do yours come from?

    I would explain to eve why it is bad to eat from the tree

    You will die?

    I will repeat, that I do not think memory-wiping is a viable solution to anything - most especially NOT against our will.

    if you walk through the points, can you honestly tell me those choices would not be more natural than what supposedly happened

    So yes, I can honestly tell you that those choices do not seem more natural to me than what supposedly happened. Most especially, memory wiping seems very UNNATURAL to me.

    (Also - and this would be an entirely different topic - God did not kill Jesus. He sent him here, yes, and he KNEW what would happen - that he would be rejected and handed over to be killed - but Jesus could have refused to die for anyone. He had authority to lay down his life, and authority to take it up. He did say that if he called on them, an army of angels would swoop down for Him.)


  • designs

    Foregiveness- How about Apologizing.

    Can you think of an instance where Jesus ever apologized.

  • PSacramento
    Can you think of an instance where Jesus ever apologized.

    For what?

  • designs


    For bumping into somebody in a crowd, for blantant lies that hurt millions, little stuff like that.

  • PSacramento
    Jesus had an interesting view of self-respect.

    It was quite BEYOND just self-respect.

    If somebody slaps you across the face you turn your cheek so the other one can take a wallop too!

    Indeed, the likes of Ghandi and MLK followed that example and look what they did.

    Forgiveness is one of those ideas that are peddled across the centuries that catch on without much thought being attached.

    Like liberty, freedom and equality for all.

    Without self-respect we are a punching bag.


    Jesus was man-handled, scourged and tortured. Paul advised us we should take the same course.

    Paul adviced that we are not more than Christ and if bad things happened to him who are we to be expemt from them?

    This doesn't sound sick to any of us because we've simply accepted it along with our Cheerios our whole life long.
    I have to ask: WHAT DOES IT HURT to rethink this? I mean from a fresh, skeptical and unbiased point of view?

    Allow me to be personal for a bit:

    I am, in all humility, what is commonly reffered to as a "trained fighter", I spend hours every week ( even now being fully retired) training Martial arts and have done so for the better part of over 30 years.

    I was also a trained sniper and served, actively, in Bosnia.

    I bounced in various night clubs and strip clubs for years.

    I WAS ( for I no longer see my self as such) what a freind of mine liked to call, " a very dangerous man"

    I am trained with knives, sticks and firearms.

    I short I can pretty much kill almost anyone I meet ( baring meeting another trained fighter like myself and then, for sure, one would be dead and the other crippled).

    And yet, I can honestly tell you My Friend, that the "turn the other cheek" teachings of My Lord, coupled with his Divine Love for Us ALL, is what keeps ME from, well....being not very nice.

    I have and always had self-resprct, but what I have gotten from My Lord is respect for OTHERS and respect for LIFE.

    Can someone have that without Christ? Sure, but I couldn't.

  • PSacramento
    For bumping into somebody in a crowd, for blantant lies that hurt millions, little stuff like that.

    I'll pass that along next time we chat ;)

  • designs

    I always wondered when Jesus took the rope and whipped people in the Temple did he hit anybody by mistake, did the whip hit a kid in the eyes or some woman in the face. He never apologizes in the Gospels, kind of curious isn't it.

  • bohm

    designs -- have you ever heard Christopher Hitchens on jesus?

    tammy -- i will reply. i dont have the time right now and i am trying to come to terms with being 100% certain Satan said he wanted to be worshipped in genesis chapter 3.. its not easy.

  • designs

    Bohm- I've heard of him, haven't read any of his work. Any suggestions.

  • PSacramento
    designs -- have you ever heard Christopher Hitchens on jesus?

    Ever heard of Vox Day on Hitchens?

    LOL !

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