Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt 195 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  bohm

  tammy -- so the dads action would be moral if the boy did not suffer something he was dying of, but rather dying as a natural consequence from? Okay i will try:

  Example: a kid sneaking out of his house, falling off the roof and breaking his leg. His father has a miracle drug that he give him every day so he will live forever, but he reason: "He didnt do as i instructed him, why should i give him the drugs? I told him i wouldnt if he broke my instruction! If i just continued to give him the drugs, is that going to stop them from sneaking out of the house again in the future? Or are they just going to find a different way of sneaking out (instead of just waiting until they are old enough and wise enough to actually leave that house at night through the front door)?". So the dad make the kid move out of his house and he eventually dies.

  mmmm.
• 

  tec

  Right. So when Eve said: "The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.", that sound like a person who took a rational descision based on all avaliable facts?

  No, that sounds like a woman who was deceived - making what Satan did cowardly and despicable. But she still ate, and death comes to her. Eve does, however, have hope for forgiveness and resurrection. I'm not so certain, according to what is written, that Satan has that same hope - perhaps because he is one of those who falls into that those a/b categories above.

  Tammy
• 

  bohm

  tec -- but if eve was deceived, that must mean she would not have taken the choice she did had she known all the facts? is that not the definition of being deceived? I think this is the bush we have been beating around for one hour.
• 

  tec

  Eve might not have made the same decision (though it changes nothing about the fact that she did eat and death did enter her also), but Adam was not so deceived.

  As per the other - If death has to happen, then how can the miracle drug that brings one to life do any good until afterward?

  (I think this is probably where we would get into spiritual life vs. fleshly life - and Christ carrying that death for us - but I'm trying not to move the goalposts on you, because I hate it when people do that to me... and I don't fully understand everything myself, which is part of my point about not judging God's actions without fully understanding them. I can just give you what I think and what I see, and I assume you know that anyway. We're also double-posting simultaneously:)

  Tammy
• 

  bohm

  If we focus on eve -- she was deseived (and lets say God could not have prevented the snake from beginning to tempt his creations). IF she would have made another action had she known the true consequences of her action, i claim God should have forgiven her error, and possible altered whatever part of her brain was changed by the fruit -- why a fruit can mediate such an event i do not know; but some angel was perhaps performing that miracle without Gods knowledge, or God can make pre-programmed miracles.

  who knows!

  I feel one must make God a creepy fellow, or eve very stupid, or the garden very horrible, for the story to make sence. God had a choice in changing Eves head, he must have as an omnipotent creature, and the only logical thing i can see is that god choose not to do that despite it would clearly be the best for Eve. Why? I think lack of forgiveness or compassion are realistic motives, and i certainly dont see God as a particular forgiving character in the chapter now as i read it again. quite the contrary, he seem very angry, and adam and eve seem meek.

  in the example, the miracle drug playes the same role as the tree of life -- as long as the kid take it, he will live forever. when he dont, he will die from old age.
• 

  tec

  Well, we know that Adam/Eve were warned that the consequence (natural consequence) of eating was death - and that God did not lie about this, though the serpent did. We know that they chose to ignore that warning, and listen to another being - one being deceived, and the other for his own reasons.

  I think the only question that can actually be asked of this account is this:

  Why could Adam and Eve NOT be allowed to eat from the tree of life after having disobeyed? We can only speculate as to that based on our limited understandings and beliefs. Which is what we have been doing.

  You think it means that God is an unmerciful, unjust creep. I KNOW it does not mean that, even if I might only guess at the right answer, as opposed to KNOWING the right answer. Because I know that God is as Christ showed Him to be - merciful, forgiving and just. I have 100% faith in Christ, and so I have 100% faith in God.

  We both make assumptions from this one account, regarding Adam/Eve/Serpent. But stack those assumptions up against Christ and what He showed us, and I think that brings us closest to the truth in the account.

  Back to our discussion... I don't think your 'messing with her mind/memories' would work. For one, He would also have to mess with Adam's on account of her. For two, do you think it is viable to go back and mess with someone's mind every time something goes wrong, or someone make a bad decision on account of being deceived or misled. Isn't it lack of trust that caused them to be misled in the first place? If that was the case for all of mankind, how many minds would have to be wiped or altered?

  Tammy
• 

  Farkel

  :Is Forgiveness Overrated?

  It's under-practiced. I know that.

  Farkel
• 

  tec

  Now that is a definite truth!
• 

  Big Tex

  If I'm being completely honest with myself, there is a short list of folks who I haven't forgiven. What do you think?

  There was a time I answered topics like this with a belief more cenetered than where I am now.

  Having said that, I do not believe forgiveness means one must literally forgive the offender. In my belief system, there are some offenses so egregious pardoning the offender becomes almost irrelevent.

  However, my belief system also says that a deeper, more subtle aspect of forgiveness is much more important. It is forgiving oneself. If you have been the victim of a hideous crime, or an incredible hurt, it is absolutely necessary to own how you feel about what was done to you, or what you experienced. Forgiveness, in this sense, means allowing yourself to really feel the entire spectrum of the stages of grief and to allow yourself to feel so badly, like such a sack of shit, so you can get past it.

  This is what forgiveness, to me at least, means. It's not about literally forgiving the offender, it is much more about allowing yourself to heal. Sort of forgiving yourself, in a way. Not that you did anything "wrong", but again there are some pains that are so great you've just got to let yourself feel really bad, until you don't feel bad anymore. You get to the other side and you forgive the experience.

  I've been through it twice, I'm going through it again. It sucks big time but for real healing to take place, in my opinion, forgiveness is absolutely necessary. Otherwise you're doomed to either be stuck in the hell of the pain of what happened, or you'll repeat the behaviors over and over. Forgiveness is about learning how to move on.

  At least in my poor brain.

  Be well,

  Chris
• 

  AGuest

  Wow! I have always thought that death is the natural state that all living creatures and plants reach at the end of their lives. This is much more exciting. A real breathing entity that I can challenge in combat - a fight to the death.

  Surely you would agree that there are many words that have more than one definition/connotation/fulfillment, dear Glad (again, peace to you!). For purposes of this discussion, there is, for example, life... and then there is the Life (Christ). There is truth... and then there is the Truth (Christ). There is door... and then there is the Door (Christ). There is holy spirit... and then there is the Holy Spirit (again, Christ). There is light... and then there is the Light (Christ). There is seed... and then there is the Seed (Christ... and the members of his Body). There is body... and then there is the Body (those in union with Christ, the head). There is temple... and then there is the Temple (of God, which is New Jerusalem... or Christ and his Body). There is good... and then there is good that is life.

  In that same light (no pun intended)... there is death... and then there is Death (Abaddon/Apollyon). There is destruction... and then there is Destruction (Abaddon/Apollyon). Judas was referred to as the "son"... of Destruction. There are dragons... and then there is the arkaic Dragon (the one called Satan and Devil, Belial). There is bad... and then there is bad that is death.

  I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA