Non-evidence reasons why people embrace Evolution.

by hooberus 282 Replies latest jw friends

  • Lion Cask
    Lion Cask

    I never thought I'd say this, but your response was a little too brief, Shelley. However, it is perhaps better if I provide a summary of what I think, as you request, and you can tell me what you think about what I think. Ok?

    I subscribe to the majority perspective that homo neanderthalensis was a distinct hominid species that branched off independently from homo sapiens and the two hominids coexisted. I would be surprised if there was no interbreeding, given homo's penchant for interspecies sex (bestiality) but I would not be surprised if any H. neanderthalensis genetic material failed to survive much beyond single generations of progeny. A simplistic parallel can be found in the Equidea family. Horses and donkeys are distinctly different species which share similar, but obviously not identical, genomes. Horses breed with donkeys to produce mules, but mules are almost always sterile. The fossil evidence indicates that H. neanderthalensis died out about 30,000 years ago, while H. sapiens thrived. Why? Don't know. Genocide? Perhaps, but that is pure speculation.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    MD: Look, what the heck are you trying to accomplish?

    I made an offhand comment about you arguing over the definition because that is something you frequently do. Arguing with you over definitions with you is a total waste of time. You argued, on another thread, for 7 pages, over the word believe. Yet, on this thread you were able to define it in 4 words.

    In your response, you stated that we can't discuss it because of an undefined term. Then you made a positive statement using the same undefined term that you complained that the author had used - without defining it. And you made this statement as if it proved something.

    I believe i have debunked the article completely, and demonstrated the author is making an unscientific claim that amount to nothing else than intimidating language.

    Completely? You have got to be kidding. I see where you made some claims, but you didn't demonstrate anything.

    What about you? What are you doing?

    I am showing why it is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with you. It is like trying to discuss something with debator or scholar. I don't agree with much that Leaving WT or Sammielee have to say, but at least they are honest and consistent and they don't pay word games.

    You dont seem to defend the article, its not even clear if you agree with the author or not (and you have not read it).

    Ok, think hard on this one. How can I defend an article or agree with its author if I haven't read it?

    Rather you seem to single me out and, well, show the world what a bad person i am to argue with?

    It is not so much you, it is about your inability to give straight answers.

    So you find a question for me, namely if a word in the article has some specific meaning,

    HELLO, McFLY!?! THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION I ASKED!!

    and you keep asking me this even though i 6 pages back said i dont know what the author mean by that word.

    And I kept telling you that was not the question I asked.

    Its not a valid question -- i cannot answer it. Surely you must see that.

    It would have been a valid question if you had answered the question I asked.

    So i point that out to you again and again -- i cant answer your question, i dont know what meaning the author assign to that word.

    And I pointed out again and again that you didn't answer my question - which I repeated again and again. For the record, the question was: " In the above statement, are you referring to the same use of "information" as in the article?"

    Yes, you did answer that you didn't know what the author meant. Here's the problem, as I said early on, your use of the word "information" implies that it was the same type of information that you were claiming not to know what the author was talking about. That is the only way your "information" statement would make any sense. To say that it is not the same or you don't know is to render your statement meaningless. In the end, after endlessly dodging the question, you admit to writing a meaningless statement.

    Then i finally give the answer you want me to say - "I dont know"

    Actually, I really didn't care what your answer was. I just wanted a straight answer.

    - and you parade it around like you have accomplished something by making me say those words.

    Parade it around? What a joke. I merely pointed out that you finally gave an answer to the question that was actually asked.

    but surely you could have told yourself this from the beginning.

    Given the inconsistency of your statement, I honestly didn't know what your answer would be.

    And what have you accomplished? It does not invalidate what i wrote about the article, and i simply dont see what it show about me.

    At the very least, it shows your inability to give a straight answer. It confirmed my suspicion that you really don't read other people's posts, or maybe you have a problem grasping simple grammar. Either is rather odd for someone who presents himself as some sort of expert on information.

    The best part is you accuse me of being polemic, argue over words, etc. etc. etc., but who are talking about science and who are arguing over words?

    We both were. But that is where you typically start. Seven pages on the word "believe". Seven pages on this one and you still don't grasp what my question was.

    It seem to me you have given up on actually arguing science, and you are now accusing others of engaging in polemic bullshit when what you have done for the past couple of days is clearly not science, rather about character and about silly questions.

    I made no pretense in this thread that my discussion with you was about science. I stated very clearly it is about you obfuscating the issue before anyone could ever get to the issue. I flat said so using simple grammar. I don't know how you could have missed it. But that is assuming you actually read and comprehended the post.

    Maybe next time you will think twice before you pounce on an off-hand comment and try to make hay with it.

    If you want people to take you more serious, you should drop the fancy slogans ("rocks turning into men") and begin to talk about something with real content.

    meh

    Fancy slogans? Wow. It doesn't take much to impress you does it? BTW, I really don't understand why the thought of evolving from rocks bothers you so much. If you wish to correct me, do so. If it is unknown, what is the problem in guessing that the minerals came from rocks? You really need to take yourself less seriously.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Darn, another double.

  • tec
    tec
    AGuest... Shelley/Shelby [which is it????)

    Shelby :)

  • Lion Cask
    Lion Cask

    Ah, thank you for clearing that up, Tammy. Shelby, I apologise for messing up your name. Won't happen again.

    I should mention, Shelby, that back in 1979 I belonged to a group called Toastmasters, whose sole purpose was to provide a venue for people to speak on topics of their own choosing. On one occasion I addressed an audience on the subject of evolution through natural selection. My objective was to refute it and I used as my research material the most lucid and logical creationist arguments I could find. I was convinced at that time that belief in evolution was just that, a belief, and I naively perceived my argument as devastating. In the audience was a professor from the local university of which I was an undergraduate science alumnus. At the next meeting, he invited me to read some well thought out papers that addressed the very things I brought up in my dissertation. I was supremely confident in my position so took him up on his offer. I actually scoffed at most of what I read and dismissed it out of hand. I just would not, could not, believe it to be anything but science fiction. In short, I refused to understand. There was no eureka moment years later, like a light just coming on all of a sudden, but a very slow dawning in my mind. At first a little doubt, followed by troubling doubt, followed by a long period of not thinking about it, then wanting to understand, then a gradual change of mind. I guess what I am saying to you is I fought hard to retain my creationist beliefs but in the end it was I myself who shot them down. I will not be able to help you see things differently, of that I am certain, because you really can't see things differently until you entertain the possibility that what you believe might just be inaccurate and then embark upon a voyage of discovery on your own.

  • TD
    TD

    LC,

    A simplistic parallel can be found in the Equidea family. Horses and donkeys are distinctly different species which share similar, but obviously not identical, genomes.

    It's funny you mentioned that. Thirty-five years ago I was a hard-core creationist, but this was one of the things that started bothering me after awhile. At the time, sterility of hybrid offspring was presented as a stabilizing force that limited variation within a "Kind."

    --Problem is, it challenges the whole concept of Genesis "Kinds" Mules and hinny stallions are sterile because testicular meiosis is arrested at the primary spermatocyte stage by incompatibility of synaptal pairing between paternal and maternal chromosomes. That type of incompatibility could easily prevent conception entirely. At that point, two species would arguably no longer be the same "Kind" despite the fact that they are clearly related by folk taxonomy if nothing else. The cheetah and leopard are a good example. --Clearly related, but can't reproduce

    If members of the same kind can drift apart and differentiate to the point of sterility, then there was no point in clinging to the concept. There was no point in bristling at the idea that the dog, bear and racoon all sprang from a common ancestor.

  • tec
    tec

    I just want to make sure I'm not missing the point here. So...

    Donkeys and horses are the same kind - Equidea - but different species within that kind, right? If that is the case, and generally speaking, doesn't that mesh with the 2 pairs of this kind, or seven pairs of this kind? The pairs being different species of the same kind? Would there then be enough genetic material to create the different species we have today? (consider perhaps that the pair is not a literal two, but many of that one species and many of the other species?)

    Just curious.

    Tammy

  • TD
    TD

    Tammy,

    They are different species in the same genus. --Equus. Species within a given genus can be completely fertile or they can be completely sterile, or they can fall somewhere between the two extremes.

    Most advocates of creation today define the term, "Kind" somewhere around the level of family, which is one rung higher on the ladder than genera

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Shelby, that is a very vague challenge. Are you asking us to explain evolution to you in ten minutes?

    Not necessarily, dear Cofty (peace to you!). You can start with the questions I've raised thus far. I am glad to know you have a knowledge of evolution so I look forward to your response(s). I have not "studied" evolution. I've admitted that my understand is limited (although I do understand what you mean regarding micro and macro evolution); however, I find science amazing, too.

    I could write you a list of some of the books I found most helpful if you like.

    No, thank you, but I would like your clarifications as to the questions I've posted.

    Until you have a sound understanding of the basics its very difficult to have a productive dialogue with you about it.

    That's a cop out, dear one. I could say the exact same thing regarding spiritual matters, but I know it is upon me to help you understand. Even if that means I have to start with the elementary things. So long as you don't talk to me like, well, less than, say, a 4th grader, we should do fine.

    Its clear from some of your comments that you are as woefully ignorant of the subject as I was 10 years ago, and I don't mean that as an insult in any way.

    Okay.

    If you have a very specific question then I'm sure many others like myself would be happy to address it but the only way forward is for you to commit to examining the evidence for yourself.

    See, that's the problem, dear one: I have examined those ideas/theories/hypotheses, etc., that didn't make sense to me... in order to try and find some sense. I couldn't. So, I posted my questions... again... and again... and... again. There's even a link, above.

    Perhaps you could tell me the titles of any books on the subject that you have studied so far - those written by evolutionists not creationists.

    And that would help, how? Dear Cofty, I don't play this game with you. I don't ask you what theologians you've read so that I can poke holes in your disagreements with them. I tell you what I know. How can I convince you that I believe what I do if I can't even articulate it to you? Sending you to someone else's thoughts/position on the subject doesn't tell me why YOU believe what you do. Indeed, it doesn't even tell me if you KNOW what you say you KNOW. While I do appreciate your taking the time to respond, it seems to me that you are still skirting. My questions really aren't that in-depth. Yet, no response, not even a comment regarding any one of them. But I'm supposed to once again put my faith in something "someone" tells me... simply because "they" say it's so... even though the "so" appears to have [gaping] holes in it? Sorry, but I need more than that, dear one.

    Again, peace to you!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Chelle,

    Greetings, dear TD... and the greatest of love and peace to you!

    Are you using the word "species" in a looser than Linnaean sense? Perhaps as an equivalent to the Biblical "Kind?" -Just tryin to understand

    Linnaean taxonomy or bio classification is fine, dear TD. So, by "species" I mean the subunit(s) of genera (genus). My understanding is that "kind" is what taxonomy refers to as class/order/family. So,

    "Species" is a catagoriztion that is inherently arbitrary because it is applied to every known form of life on earth. What I mean by this is that the conditions and criteria that constitute a breeding group among plants are very different than among animals. Many plants simply scatter their pollen to the wind. With animals, some fairly elaborate behavior patterns are involved and animals can be very picky about choosing a mate.

    Yes.

    For example, a change in color or plumage or song that might seem trivial to you or me can be extremely important when perceived through the eyes and ears of a bird. In the wild, when one group of birds cannot or will not mate with another group of birds, they are legitimately classified as two different species regardless of how closely related they are genetically. (i.e. Regardless of whether they are actually fertile together or not.)

    Yes!

    Even the way an altricial chick holds its head and the sounds it makes can be a reproductive barrier. If the chick does not behave just right, the parent(s) will refuse to feed it. I've bred exotic finches as a hobby and it's a problem you run into sometimes when two closely related species cross. There's nothing wrong with the chick --it just doesn't behave the way the parents are genetically programmed to expect. That's how trivial a species division can be. All it takes is a reproductive barrier.

    Yes.

    I hope I clarified/answered your questions. Again, peace to you, dear one!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

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