Is God LOVE ?

by wobble 76 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AGuest
    Actually Shelby, the length of the creative days is not the issue when it comes to Adam. As I'm sure you know, it's the geneologies listed from Adam to Jesus, as was plainly stated in the gospels, that the entire Orthodox Christian theology depends upon. Those are literal years, dear Shelby. There is simply no room for those extra 6,000 years dating back to the earliest known temple of worship...clearly separating those people from the Neanderthals.

    Yes, I understand, dear ProdSon (peace to you!) and you are correct in your math. There could be another explanation, which includes the identity of the folks in Nod, but I am not able to share it just yet. I promise to do so, however, if and when I am able. In the meantime, I apologize for the confusion.

    If it isn't a metaphor, dear Shelby.... then I find it extremely unfair and illogical that the dude who supposedly caused all this mess lived for almost a thousand years (by THAT time I personally would be more than ready to depart the earthly scene), while the rest of us inherently sinful offspring are lucky if we ever see the age of 70.......

    I do not completely negate the metaphor, dear one, especially since the "Tree of Life" was/is my Lord; however, it is not myth.

    Again, I bid you peace!

    A slave of Christ,


  • AGuest
    LOVE is the same way. The value you place on a tiny, soft, helpless kitten or puppy or baby triggers your emotion when you see one or hear it cry. The primary is the VALUE which informs the evaluation of the creature or the sound and triggers the emotion: LOVE.

    Not quite sure I agree, dear Terry (peace to you!). I would love to say I know, but I don't, so I can only share what my Lord gave me in the wee hours of this morning (please keep in mind, his thinking is not limited to the western world/culture):

    He said love is a trait, not an emotion, and one of only two: love and hate. He said these are the traits that become inherent in a man.

    He said both love and hate evoke emotion:

    Love... pity, compassion, sympathy, empathy, affection, attraction, regard, and respect.

    Hate... fear, anger, lack of pity/sympathy/empathy/affection, repulsion, contempt, disregard, disrepect.

    He said those emotions elicit action:

    Love... mercy, forgiveness, proper attraction, tenderness, gentleness, things that honor/bring honor.

    Hate... lack of mercy, refusal to forgive, improper attraction, unkindness, aggression (as in bullying), things that dishonor/bring dishonor.

    Given your kitten example, then, it would seem to me that it is the TRAIT of love... IN one... that evokes the EMOTION of compassion. When possible, such compassion would move one to take action to stop the kit's crying... which one would do with tenderness/gentleness. I could be wrong, of course, but given what my Lord shared with me (which makes sense... to ME)... that's kind of how it would shake out.

    What's your take?

    Again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,


  • PSacramento

    Personally, I don't think I could have understood love until I became a Father.

    I loved my Family and loved my wife with all my heart, but I never even imagined the love I could feel for my children.

    It is something that I can't put into words and every description I hear doesn't even coem close to how I feel about them.

    I am sure for others it is different but for ME, only after my children did I begin to understand Love.

  • Farkel

    Greetings Shelby,

    :Yes, the NWT says that, but one must be careful to use most accurate translations when quoting scriptures and verses.

    Does the God who is jealous, but not THAT kind of jealous (which isn't jealous as in "jealous"), provide us all with a consistent Bible so that we can understand that "jealous" doesn't really mean what everything thinks it means?

    Apparently not.

    Farkel, Trying to Find the Correct Bible CLASS

  • journey-on

    Very interesting viewpoints here. I have enjoyed the read.

    Dearest Shelby...I usually read most everything you present. When I have even the slightest "problem" with something, I usually mull over it then attempt to reconcile it in some way through clarification (you understand?).

    Out of everything here, I'm having difficulty clarifying one little thing. Indeed it seems like such a small thing, but it has unusually concerned me for some reason, and I feel compelled to respectfully reqest a "clarification". You said: "The Darkness existed even before the Light." Are you certain of that phrase? Thank you and an abundance of Peace to you as well ;-)

  • tec

    I'm sure Shelby will answer herself, but I would just like to post the account from the bible for JO... okay?

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.


  • Terry


    Are we really parsing the language of Genesis as though it contains precise, informative data from a Supreme Being's POV?

    How can we do that with any confidence?

    Darkness is the absence of Light, certainly--but, from whose POV? Does God need light to see? Does He have organic eyeballs and an optic nerve?

    How long after the "event" of creation did the story get started and who was there to verify it came from a Divine source rather than a hand-me-down just so story explaining the unexplainable?

    If you are really going to believe God prepared the Earth for man you've got a really large problem explaining millions and millions of years of the Earth being inhabited by dinosaurs devouring one another!

    Wouldn't it be more.......(choosing words carefully.....)....prudent, likely, scientifically treat Genesis as a folk tale constantly retold and attributed eventually to Moses?

    I mean...really!!

  • AGuest
    Does the God who is jealous, but not THAT kind of jealous (which isn't jealous as in "jealous"), provide us all with a consistent Bible so that we can understand that "jealous" doesn't really mean what everything thinks it means?

    No, dear Daddy-O (the greatest of love and peace to you, my dear one!)... He provided a Son to lead us into all truth. And so, when I read your comment I though, "Yeah, hey, what about that, Lord?" And he explained, he me look up the Greek word and told me to tell YOU not to be fooled by the false stylus of the scribes, particularly the WTBTS ones.

    You said: "The Darkness existed even before the Light." Are you certain of that phrase?

    I am, dear JO (the greatest of love and peace to you, as well!). Now, I am for a different reason (i.e., it is what my Lord told me), but even Genesis says this:

    In the beginning (actually, in the Ark, the womb of the Woman)... God created the heavens (spirit realm) and the earth (physical realm/universe). Now the earth (physical universe) was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (the "deep" and "waters" are an entirely different thread, dear one - but what is meant is that the darkness was not confined, but free to move about). And God said, “Let there be light,” (actually, He said, "Let the Light come forth", which Light is my Lord) and there was light. God saw that the light was good (i.e., Life), and he separated the light from the darkness (i.e., Death. Actually, He decreed a division... enmity... between the Light and the Darkness. Because one is good... and the other bad/evil). God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” (This is an addition by the scribes). And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

    Please note, this was NOT with reference to creating night and day as we know, illuminated by the sun and moon. That was the third "day." But, yes, the Darkness (Death) was there before the Light (Life) came into existence, dear one.

    I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,


  • journey-on

    Thank you for that clarification, Shelby. I guess what is bothering me still about Who/What was first (Light or Darkness) isn't pertaining to the creation of our physical realm and the Divine's attention to such, but rather before that "Big Bang" so to speak. Remember, Pure Light is invisible. We only "see" it because of Matter's reflective property.

  • thetrueone

    Sorry AGuest, science trumps mythology ever time

    Debunking Christianity

    Genesis 1:26-1:27, Creation of Humans in Near Eastern Myths And The Paleolithic Era
    By Anonymous at 5/12/2008 This article presents evidence to support the conclusion that Gods creation of Adam and Eve(1a) is a Near Eastern (Southwest Asian) myth. This conclusion is a premise in a linked argument spread out over a series of articles intended to debunk Genesis 1-11 and Romans 5.

    This article is a collection of notes put together from sources that are represented by quick reference links to similar webpages to make it easy to get more information as quickly as possible. The original sources are listed at the end.

    P1. The Interconnectedness of The Ancients - Demonstrates the robust ancient civilizations at the time and that Canaan, Israel and Judah were central to them. Discusses trade routes, seafaring, the link between whales and the Leviathans of Mythology and how long it would take to get from one civilization to another by sea.
    P2. Genesis 1:1-25 Is An Amalgam of Near Eastern Creation Myths. Demonstrates the prior existence of key elements of the story of the creation of the Universe that appears in Genesis.
    P3. Genesis 1:26-1:27, Creation of Humans in Near Eastern Myths And The Paleolithic Era. Demonstrates that the physical evidence contradicts the story of the making of the first humans in Genesis.

    There are two versions of the Human Creation Story in Genesis(1b). The concept is the same but the details are different. That is consistent with the criteria for folklore(2) described in Alan Dundees book "Holy Writ as Oral Lit" which are "multiple existence and variation". The bible is full of stories with the same concept but different details. For example, compare Isaiah, Jeremiah and Micah. Here is a list of folklore characteristics I pulled down from a high school website.
    * Generally part of the oral tradition of a group. Most stories are told rather than read
    * Passed down from one generation to another
    * Take on the characteristics of the time and place in which they are told, and the personality of the storyteller
    * Speak to universal and timeless themes. The try to make sense of our existence, help humans cope with the world in which they live, or explain the origin of something.
    * Often about the common person
    * May contain supernatural elements
    * Function to validate certain aspects of culture

    Generally, myths are a subcategory of Folklore that contain supernatural or Religious components.

    The famous Documentary Hypothesis(3) posits that the Torah (aka Pentateuch, first five books of the Old Testament) is a collection of writing from four sources over a period of about 500-600 hundred years. Genesis 1 is from "The Priestly" source(4) , and Genesis 2 is from "The Jawist" source(5) (Jawist being the German word for Yawist). Using this as our guide, that would make the first creation story from about 450 BCE and the second one from around 950 BCE. The characteristics of the Torah that support the Documentary Hypothesis are some of the same characteristics that are consistent with the definition of Folklore. Some bible scholars don't like the documentary hypothesis, but they seem to be in the minority, and I haven't seen any compelling arguments to refute it. In one of the courses I listened to the teacher try to pick apart the Documentary Hypothesis but he used "special pleading"and wasn't very convincing.

    Both creation stories were incorporated into the Torah about 400 BCE(5) during the rule of the Persian Empire. There are many differences in the two stories. Some differences in the two stories reflect the time, place and theology that they were written in. The First story, written later, has a God removed from creation and does not play much of a role with Humans after the creation. It was supposedly written during the Persian Rule after the Babylonian Exile. The second story was written much earlier and reflects a God that is involved and an integral part of Human Lives. It was supposedly written 500 hundred years earlier when the Jews were relatively self-governing and self-reliant.

    Four major differences in the two stories follow, but there are many others that are not covered here.
    A. God is referred to by different names in each story. In the first story he is referred to as Elohim (“God”) and in the second story he is referred to as Yahweh (“LORD”) or Yahweh Elohim (“LORD God”).
    B. The methods of creation are different. In the first story creation occurs by the spoken word and in the second story creation occurs by physical means (for example, God plants a garden).
    C. The order of creation is different in the two stories. The first story follows the order in the Enuma Elish(6) and starts with vegetation and proceeds to animals on to humans, and the second story begins with the male human, then the vegetation in the Garden of Eden, and then the animal kingdom.
    D. In the first story, the man and woman are created together, but in the second story, the male is created first, with the female made later from his rib.

    Multiple existence and variation is the Criteria for Folklore

    GENESIS 1:26-1:27
    * Genesis 1-31 Closely follows the structure of the Enuma Elish in the creation of the world
    * Genesis 1:26-27
    -- Generally thought to be written much earlier, and attributed to the "Priestly" writer
    -- Has evidence of polytheism (7). At the time of the writing of Genesis, the theology about Angels hadn't been developed (angels were an aspect of God and not separate beings)(8), neither had the trinity, or use of the "Royal We" by royalty to refer to themselves in the third person.
    -- We can see from the Bible that the Early Jews struggled with Polytheism which is supported by Archeology.
    26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    * Humans having aspects of a God are common in myths whether its breath, blood, body or spit
    - Hinduism has a God Purusha(9) ritually sacrificed himself to make the cosmos and humans out of pieces of himself.
    - Enuma Elish has man being made from the blood of the God Kingu(10) and dirt.

    27 So God created man in his own image,
    in the image of God he created him;
    male and female he created them.

    God made a man and a woman. They were supposed to be the first and therefore alone. But we know from Paleontology that many different forms of hominids existed before our species Homo Sapiens Sapiens in the Paleolithic era(11). Therefore this claim does not fit the physical evidence.

    Before you proceed any further, I highly recommend you visit
    The Genographic Project, a joint Effort between National Geographic and IBM. It is a great quick and concise source of Human Ancestry information and serves as a complementary multimedia presentation for this article, looks nicer and is much more entertaining.

    Unlike our story in Genesis, the following has been derived from physical evidence retrieved by the hard, backbreaking, and mind-numbing work of millions of truth seekers over the course of more than a hundred years. is a good place to start for a quick reference to this type of information

    In the Paleolithic era, climate changes caused Ice Ages which played a key part in Human migration. It caused the Sahara to expand and contract (12a), fossils and tools have been found in and around dried up lake beds in the Desert. So far three main forms of Hominid have been identified (of which Homo was the direct ancestor of Humanity), which belong to two broad groups.

    * 2.4 - 1.5 million BCE:
    - Homo Habilis(13), bipedal, made and used tools, butchered meat with tools, physically possible for speech but likely brain didn't support language, became dependent on technology, had greater social intelligence.

    * 1.8 million BCE and 300,000 BCE:
    - Homo Erectus(14) controlled fire, improves the tools, followed herds, migrated north with herds, hunted Big Game, adapted to Ice Age climate about 780,000 BCE
    - First diaspora, Homo Erectus spread to Asia, Eurasia, and as they evolved crept into Europe (between 1.8m BCE and 800,000 BCE).

    * 500,000 - 250,000 BCE:
    - Homo Erectus larger brain size, better developed Broca's Area(14a) needed for speech, , rudimentary communication with sounds and gestures, butchers animals, migrated as far as Europe, lived among ice sheets and glaciers, tools and fossils found in Ubeidiya(14b) in Israel from 1.4m BCE, followed the herds, lived near lakes and rivers, 500,000 BCE drove large prey such as bison over cliffs, used spears, cooperated among themselves.

    * 300,000 - 30,000 BCE:
    - Leslie Aiello and Robin Dunbar theorize that language ability appeared in humans 250,000 BCE(15,16)
    - Neanderthals(17) more sophisticated than Homo Erectus developed more or less in parallel with Homo Sapiens, improves tools lived 230,000 and 30,000 years ago, lived alongside Homo Sapiens, might have had language, certainly rudimentary communication, obviously able to survive in warmer temperatures additionally they adapted well to the extreme cold of the Ice Age using northernmost settlements in summer, made composite tools which have more than one part, but eventually died off by 40,000 BCE leaving only Homo Sapiens
    - The earliest indications of rituals and/or religious behavior are found among Neanderthals(18).
    -- Neanderthals buried their dead carefully with food and implements and removed the brains from human skulls. This practice suggests cannibalism, probably to gain the skills and virtues of the deceased. Neanderthals also preserved skulls and bones of cave bears on platforms or shelves in their caves.

    * 200,000 - 100,000 BCE:
    - Homo Sapiens Sapiens(19) - Modern forms of Homo Sapiens first appear about 195,000 years ago in Africa.
    - Three groups or major grades of archaic forms have been identified
    -- Early archaic Homo Sapiens closer to Homo Erectus, heavily built, 200,000 BCE. Molecular Biology mitochondrial DNA points to humans evolving in tropical Sub-Sahara Africa and is a potentially reliable link between modern and ancestral humans, "Mitochondrial Eve"(20) points to a population which we all have in common in Africa.
    -- Late archaic Homo Sapiens, mosaic of different features found on surviving skulls, small bands of different creatures numbering in the thousands, more modern date to 100,000 BCE
    -- Anatomically modern widely distributed at least 115,000 BCE in east and southern Africa

    * 100,000 - 40,000 BCE: * The Great Diaspora(21)
    - Ecological background affects, appearance of new hunting kits south of the Sahara ~100k years ago.
    - Evolution of modern humans had run its course from 100-70,000 BCE ago in east and southern Africa, far earlier than Europe and Asia, Neanderthals flourished in Europe, and southwest Asia,
    - In 70,000 BCE estimate of worlds human population is around 2,000(21).
    - With the serendipitous mutation of the FOXP2(22) gene, Humans acquired modern language abilities and were capable of sophisticated communications(23), facts concepts and ideas, emotions, reason, planning, adapting, dramatic changes in cognitive ability.
    - Two theories of the dispersion of humans. 1. out of Africa Hypothesis(24), 2. multi-regional (recently refuted)(25), DNA examination shows that Neanderthals and humans are incompatible and cannot interbreed(26).
    - DNA, blood groups and enzymes show that , there is a primary split between Africans and non-Africans, Eurasians-SW Asians.
    - It appears that all humans have a common male ancestor who has been named "Adam".
    From the National Geographic Genographic project(27)
    "Adam--60,000 ya
    --"Adam" is the common male ancestor of every living man. he lived in Africa some 60,000 ya, which means that all humans lived in Africa until at least that time.
    -- Unlike his biblical namesake, this Adam was no the only man alive in his era. Rather , he is unique because his descendants are the only ones to survive to the present day.
    -- It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. he is the coalescensce point of all the genetic diversity found in the world's disparate peoples. Adam had human ancestors as well, but we have not remaining genetic evidence of them. The changes to the Y chromosome that we follow back through the generations to identify Adam end in the commonality of that shared ancestor. (genographic project)"
    -- As the climate in the Sahara changed by becoming wetter, and dryer in a periodic cycle, animals and people moved in and out of it. Before 100,000 years ago the Sahara had many shallow lakes and semi-arid grasslands. When the Sahara dried up, everything moved out to the edges.
    -- Sometime between 100,000 and 60,000 years ago humans moved out of Africa. They would have followed any of several migration options, including through the Nile Valley, across the Red Sea, and along the northern coast. Fossils in the Qafzeh Cave(28) and other places in Israel show that Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Neanderthal lived alongside each other for thousands of years.
    -- During the height of the last glaciation the geography of southeast Asia was different than it is today. Sea levels were 300 feet lower than they are now. There is good evidence for seafaring after 50,000 BCE(29). The distance between land was shorter.
    - Remains of early human beings from the Upper Paleolithic era show a religious life similar to that of Neanderthals.
    -- Mousterian material culture of the Middle Paleolithic appears throughout the Mediterranean basin.
    -- Human beings from this era (like the Neanderthals) share a concern with proper treatment of the dead.
    -- During this era, the dead were buried carefully, usually with the feet pulled up into a contracted position.
    -- Burials were often in the cave where the group lived or in another cave nearby.
    -- The body was typically buried under a stone slab with ornaments, stone tools, food, and weapons.
    - About 40,000 years ago, with the appearance of the Cro-Magnon culture, tool kits started becoming markedly more sophisticated, using a wider variety of raw materials such as bone and antler, and containing new implements for making clothing, engraving and sculpting. Fine artwork, in the form of decorated tools, beads, ivory carvings of humans and animals, clay figurines, musical instruments, and spectacular cave paintings appeared over the next 20,000 years.

    * 30,000–10,000 BCE:
    - In The Upper Paleolithic era There were major changes in how humans behaved.
    -- Early Homo Sapiens in Europe carved antlers, painted the walls of caves and molded clay figures.
    -- They made exaggerated clay female figurines that appear to be associated with fertility rites.
    -- Old Stone Age religious rituals appear to be intended to maintain harmony between the living and dead.
    -- The end of the Old Stone Age is marked by a revolution in material culture and substantial climate changes.
    -- The end of the Paleolithic era leads to changes in religious activities to address changes in how people lived.

    * 10,000 BCE:
    - the estimated world population was 1-10 million.(30)
    Adam and Eve are Near Eastern (Southwest Asia) Creation Myths because
    - Signs of human intelligence and non-specific pagan "religion" start with the Neanderthals. They include tool making, origin of speech and language and a pagan belief in the supernatural. Experts start talking about rudimentary communication about 500,000 years ago, burying the dead about 100,000 years ago, evidence of Cro-Magnon religion in cave paintings 45,000 years ago,
    - Physical evidence for Evolution from one of three forms of hominids in sub-Saharan Africa, the expansion and contraction of the Sahara as the catalyst for migration, Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus, the first diaspora, Neanderthals, Homo Sapiens second diaspora, and the out of Africa theory
    - Micro biology and genetics advances converge on an origin in sub-Saharan Africa around 60,000 BCE
    - Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens Sapiens co-existed and were not genetically compatible,
    - Human Founder populations (and in general) need more than two individuals (discussion deferred to the next article).
    - Stories of Man made from dirt appear earlier than the Torah in Southwest Asia and all over the world (discussion deferred to the next article).

    Adam and Eve don't fit. </form>

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