The Mother of All Watchtower Errors

by Perry 45 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Perry

    I don't think Adam and Eve could have understood what their Father was capable of.

    Oh they understood it alright. There was nothing wrong with their hearing or intellect. They just didn't want to BELIEVE it.

  • hamsterbait

    Who should be the one to tell God which things that he ordains should come to pass and which things should not? You?

    Who should be the one to ordain what you eat for dinner tonight? Me?


  • watson

    Did they understand what death was like for humans? Had they seen another human? Did they understand punishment? Did Jehovah warn them about animals that could communicate with them?

    Not sarcastic questions. I had to ask myself that when trying to comprehend what the creator was capable of.

  • Perry

    Well watson, had they loved God they would have believed him. They had ample reason to trust and love him. They had no reason to trust a talking snake of all things.

    Then as now, there will always be "good" reasons to do as one pleases. But death is its end. I have taken up God on his offer to deny myself, make peace with him through the blood, and follow him. It's not easy to trust. All I can say is that my experience in trusting God to accept the New Covenant terms is the best thing I could have done. I am a much better person, and much more.

    God does a much better job at running my life than I could ever do. Yet, somehow my personal will isn't extinguished, just gently molded.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Bible God was the petty prick who made a rule about not eating fruit. He didn't have to make that choice, and he didn't have to fly off the handle and kill everybody over his silly peice of fruit. He's a nut job and has passed his use by date. Invent a new one.

  • DagothUr

    There is no sin.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Perry is correct. Designs is antichrist.

    d) The Jehovah's Witnesses' "covenant with Christ's followers" is a fabrication; it is not a valid separate covenant for yet another kingdom, but an administrative appointment with respect to the kingdom[Home]

    Without a replacement covenant they lack a basis, or authority, for ruling during the thousand years. You could say they lack enabling legislation. Their answer to this dilemma is Jesus’ so-called ‘covenant with Christ’s followers,’ but this so-called “covenant with Christ’s followers” is not a covenant for yet another kingdom, but rather an appointment of authority to run, or continue to administer, the fledgling church, Christ’s kingdom of priests pursuant to the Davidic and New Covenant.

    Jesus’ Covenant With His Followers. On the night of Nisan 14, 33 C.E., after celebrating the Lord’s Evening Meal Jesus made this covenant with his faithful apostles. To the 11 faithful apostles he promised that they would sit on thrones (Lu 22:28-30; compare 2 Ti 2:12.) Later, he showed that this promise extended to all spirit-begotten ‘conquerors.’ (Re 3:21; see also Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6.) On the day of Pentecost he inaugurated this covenant toward them by the anointing with holy spirit those disciples present in the upper room in Jerusalem. (Ac 2:1-4, 33) Those who would stick with him through trials dying his kind of death (Php 3:10; Col 1:24), would reign with him, sharing his Kingdom rule. The covenant remains operative between Jesus Christ and these associate kings forever. - Re 22:5 (Insight, 524, 525)

    As a covenant it is ineffectual and intrinsically unable to bring about the forgiveness of sin and human perfection, redeem man or grant everlasting life. Neither was it intended as a means of rule over earthly subjects. The kingdom which the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim is the object of their covenant is set out at Luke 22:28-30 and Matthew 19:27-30.

    28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant (“confer” NAB; “assign” ESV; “appoint” Green’s Literal) with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:28-30 NWT).

    27 Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more (a “hundredfold” Green’s Literal) and will inherit everlasting life. (Matt. 19:27-30 NWT).

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses populate this covenant with the “bride” taken out during under the temporary New Covenant.

    The purpose of the covenant is to take out a people for Jehovah’s name as a part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Ac 15:14) They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom to rule with Him. (Joh 3:29; 2 Cor 11:2; Re 21:9; Luke 22:29; Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6) The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens. (Insight, 524)

    First, Jesus’ use of the Greek word diathemai means foremost to put apart, dispose (by assignment, compact or bequest [Vine‘s]). And even though it can mean ‘covenant,’ in this particular context, with respect to this specific verse, Luke 22:29 means to arrange, dispose or appoint.

    Diathemi, a verb … (2)… means to arrange, dispose of, one’s own affairs (2a) of something that belongs to one: The Lord used it of His disciples with reference to the kingdom which is to be theirs hereafter, and of Himself in the same respect, as that which has been “appointed” for him by His Father: “And I appoint (diathemi) unto you a kingdom, as My Father hath appointed (diathemi) unto me” Lk 22:29;” (Vine’s, 67)

    Other commentators are in accord, that the kingdom was to be his disciples’ thereafter. He was not creating another kingdom for the 144,000 to rule over earthly subjects in the next life. “As (the kingdom’s) administrators they are to share in it; hence they are to join with Jesus in the eschatological feast when he has come into His kingdom…” (G.W.H. Lampe, Peake’s Commentary, 840). Jesus was departing and left the apostles in charge.

    The granting of the right to sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel was specific to the apostles, not a general grant of power for the 144,000 to rule over earthly subjects under Revelation 20:4-6 during the thousand year reign.

    Furthermore, the specific nature of the grant to the apostles to "judge" is clarified at Matthew 19:27-30. Everyone (not just the 144,000) who give up many things will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life; but not everyone sits on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That extra privilege of judging is reserved to the apostles, not the 144,000.

    Secondly, a seemingly odd inauguration of this “covenant with Christ’s followers” has the Jehovah’s Witnesses borrowing and sharing the same Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost that inaugurated the New Covenant, over the same group of people, (Insight, 524) even though the New Covenant is, according to them, severely limited in duration and scope, and this covenant was never ratified with Christ’s blood.

    That aside, the scriptural support for extending the specific grant of authority to the apostles to include the future 144,000 is weak, if that. They teach that, “Those who would stick with him through trials dying his kind of death (Phil 3;10; Col 1:24) would reign with him sharing his kingdom rule” (Insight, 525). But that is also in error because a) many of the 144,000 have not died horrible, painful, tortuous deaths like Christ’s, b) Phil 3:10 refers to Paul’s “sharing of his sufferings in order to “attain the ressurection of the dead.” It says nothing about suffering in order to reign or judge over man during the thousand years, and Christ’s appointment was not because of their suffering, but because they stuck with him through his trials, and c) in Col 1:24 all Paul is rejoicing in is his own suffering, with no mention of how that places him on a throne during the millennial reign.

    Third, those who reign at Revelation 20:4-6, the souls of those beheaded, are not the same as those on thrones entrusted with judgment, as the Jehovah‘s Witnesses propose; so they can’t be “judging” the resurrected under these provisions as the claim.

    Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the world of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or lands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and Christ, and they will reign with him [for] the thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NAB) (also: I saw, ESV; And I saw the souls, NASB; I also saw the souls, CEV)

    A literal translation does not read “Yes, I saw the soul …” at Revelation 20:4 as the Jehovah’s Witnesses have interpreted it in order to associate these two groups of people as being the same, and place the 144,000 on judgment seats.

    Furthermore, the 144,000 would have to share the reign with the Great Crowd who, like those who reign, have “not worshiped the beast or its image nor accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands.” This places the Great Crowd up in heaven, not on earth.

    Fourth, since the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the twelve tribes of Israel at Revelation 7:1-8 are the anointed 144,000 and they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel pursuant to Luke 22:28-30 and Matthew 19:28, they end up judging themselves.

    Fifth, Christ’s so-called “covenant with his followers,” as a redemptive covenant, is void and ineffective because it was never ratified with blood: “For where a covenant is, the death of him covenanting must be offered” (Heb. 9:16 Green’s Literal; see also Heb. 9:15-21). “… Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness,” (Heb 9:22 NAB), and if there is no forgiveness of sin there can be no reconciliation, no “perfection.

    Only Christ’s blood can form the basis of reconciliation (Eph. 2:13-16), redemption (Rom. 3:24-25), justification and salvation (Rom. 5:9), sanctification (Heb. 10:29), and life itself (John 6:53-56). Without Christ’s shed blood ratifying the so-called “covenant with Christ’s followers,” none of this is attainable. But it is under the New Covenant.

  • PSacramento

    RE: Luke 22:29

    Versions are:

    New International Version(©1984)
    And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me,

    New Living Translation(©2007)
    And just as my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right

    English Standard Version(©2001)
    and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,

    New American Standard Bible(©1995)
    and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you

    International Standard Version(©2008)
    And I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred a kingdom on me,

    GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
    So as my Father has given me a kingdom, I'm giving it to you.

    King James Bible
    And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

    American King James Version
    And I appoint to you a kingdom, as my Father has appointed to me;

    American Standard Version
    and I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me,

    Bible in Basic English
    And I will give you a kingdom as my Father has given one to me,

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom;

    Darby Bible Translation
    And I appoint unto you, as my Father has appointed unto me, a kingdom,

    English Revised Version
    and I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me,

    Webster's Bible Translation
    And I appoint to you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed to me;

    Weymouth New Testament
    and I covenant to give you, as my Father has covenanted to give me, a Kingdom--

    World English Bible
    I confer on you a kingdom, even as my Father conferred on me,

    Young's Literal Translation
    and I appoint to you, as my Father did appoint to me, a kingdom,

  • PSacramento

    Within the context of that chapter:

    Who Is Greatest

    24 And there arose also a a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest .

    25 a And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentileslord it over them; and those who haveauthorityover them are calledBenefactors.’

    26 “But it is not thisway with you, a but the one who is the greatestamong you must becomelike b the youngest, and the leaderlike the servant.

    27 “For a who is greater, the one who reclinesat the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclinesat the table? But b I amamong you as the one who serves.

    28 “You are those who have stood by Me in My a trials;

    29 and just as My Fatherhasgranted Me a a kingdom, I grant you

    30 that you may a eat and drink at My table in My b kingdom, and c you will sit on thronesjudging the twelvetribes of Israel.

    31 Simon, Simon, behold, a Satanhas 1 demandedpermission to b sift you likewheat;

    32 but I a have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, whenonce you have turnedagain, b strengthen your brothers.”

    33 a But he said to Him, “Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!”

    34 And He said, “I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crowtodayuntil you have deniedthreetimes that you know Me.”

    35 And He said to them, a When I sent you out withoutmoneybelt and bag and sandals, you did not lackanything, did you?” They said, “ No, nothing.”

    36 And He said to them, “But now, 1 whoeverhas a moneybelt is to take it along, likewisealso a bag, and 1 whoeverhasnosword is to sell his 2 coat and buy one.

    37 “For I tell you that this which is writtenmust be fulfilled in Me, ‘ a And He was numbered with transgressors’; for b that which refers to Me hasits 1 fulfillment.”

    38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two a swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

  • hamsterbait



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