Well, I Guess There IS One Good Thing About the WTBTS...

by AGuest 68 Replies latest jw friends

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  cameo-d

  It is apparent that this thread is a continued attempt to justify your skewed reasoning in what is a degrading manner of pretensious giving.

  When is a "gift" not a Gift?

  *When a recipient is compelled to perform an action in order to receive such "gift" it becomes, not a gift, but compensation-in-fact for said performance.

  *When by his own words, recipient states he is not allowed in store and is thus peacefully complying and "giver" demands the recipient break his peaceful stance in defiance of the store rules in order to receive a future benefit the "giver" intends to bestow.

  *When "giver" demands that the recipient lower his self esteem and dignity in order to comply with demands of terms and condition of said "gift", which is, in fact, a reward for bad behavior;

  When furthermore, said "gift" is not free but will be presented upon the action of recipient's fait accompli which is intended to glamorize the "giver's" appearance as benevolent, but is in fact, false and sanctimonous.

  There is a right way and a wrong way to give Shelby. When one acts based on their own sense of importance with the intent to aggrandize themselves in the eyes of others, and when one accomplishes this by placing demands on the recipient to comply and be obedient to their commands in order to receive a benefit, this is NOT freely giving. This is CONDITIONAL "giving".

  Would the recipient have received food had he not complied with the "giver's" terms? This we do not know. But what we can most correctly surmise, is that the "giver's" motive for the offer was ego based. This was further demonstrated by the attempt at personal edification in the eyes of others. The motivation is clearly evidenced by the disruption caused and the further demands placed on business staff by the "giver". "Giver" displayed intimidation tactics by extending implied threats of discrimination, and thus possible lawsuits, if staff co-operation was not forthcoming. This is evidenced by the circus scene and loud display to assure witnesses to "giver's" perceived discrimination. "Giver" acted with threat, duress, and coersion with intent to incite a mob action or possible lawsuit should the "giver's" terms not be met.

  Any business has the right to refuse service.

  Any business has a legal right to enforce its standards of dress code when properly Noticed at the entrances.

  Any business has the right and the duty to protect the health, peace and well being of it's patrons.
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  AGuest

  we can most correctly surmise, is that the "giver's" motive for the offer was ego based.

  I have to disagree, dear cameo-d (peace to you!)... on a very valid basis: I know the giver. Unlike you. You THINK you do, by this one account. What do I know? That this particular person was trying to help another and, naively, did not "surmise" that others would stand in HIS way... even if THEY didn't want to feed the man themselves. He was caught off guard by that, yes... but rather than turn tail and run (which I am SURE you would have done, if you had bothered to even offer a meal, at all)... stood his ground. Should he have? Of course, he should have. We should ALL stand our ground for those with less than us.

  This was further demonstrated by the attempt at personal edification in the eyes of others.

  Yeah, right. So, you think he would have of "looked better" to those watching if he had said, "Look, man, they won't LET me buy you anything and, so, well... I'm off the hook. Sorry, but there's nothing I can do"? When in fact the truth was that there WAS something he could do... and he did it: risked being thrown out himself? Do you really think he CARED what those watching thought? I promise you... I know this man. He didn't. Not one wit.

  The motivation is clearly evidenced by the disruption caused and the further demands placed on business staff by the "giver". "Giver" displayed intimidation tactics by extending implied threats of discrimination,

  Whoa... what? Discrimination against whom? The hungry man? I got the impression that they didn't particularly serve ANYONE of that ilk

  and thus possible lawsuits, if staff co-operation was not forthcoming.

  Well, if they were in the right... then they had nothing to fear.

  This is evidenced by the circus scene and loud display to assure witnesses to "giver's" perceived discrimination.

  WHAT discrimination???? I mean, the dear one was appalled, yes... NOT that the establishment wouldn't serve the hungry man. The hungry man TOLD him that they wouldn't serve him there. The giver apparently was appalled... that they wouldn't even let HIM feed the man. They could have said, "Sir, you're welcome to buy whatever, but the gentleman there will have to wait outside for it." Did they do that? Nope. They were SO adamant that the man wasn't going to EAT... that they didn't care WHO received the service. Get it? I'm thinking most folks wouldn't even do that... to a dog.

  "Giver" acted with threat, duress, and coersion with intent to incite a mob action or possible lawsuit should the "giver's" terms not be met.

  Oh, please. If that were the case, they wouldn't have served HIM.

  Any business has the right to refuse service.

  Not entirely, dear cameo-d, o enlightened of the law one. This is California... and the U.S. of A. Any business can post that they CLAIM the right... but that doesn't mean they HAVE it... or will prevail in court for trying to assert it. Sorry, but you TRULY don't know the law on that one.

  Any business has a legal right to enforce its standards of dress code when properly Noticed at the entrances.

  It does. So long as that "standard" is clearly posted... and reasonable. Meaning, they can require you to have a shirt, shoes... and in some instances a jacket and/or tie. But I saw nothing in the account about such a posting OR having to do with the hungry man's attire.

  Any business has the right and the duty to protect the health, peace and well being of it's patrons.

  It does. I saw nothing in the post where the hungry man had threatened anyone's health... peace... or well-being. As for the so-called right of refusal, that right is more objective than subjective. For example, McDonald's can't tell you they won't serve you because your name is "cameo-d and [they] don't serve people whose names are spelled with all lower-case letters." Sorry, but there is no such right of refusal for that, so your "right to refuse service" is by NO means absolute. Not by a long shot.

  You obviously don't know the law on this, dear cameo-d, so I don't think you and I should venture down THAT road, here. BUT... if you want to know TRUTHFULLY, the only real way they could have kept the hungry man out of the store... was to have a restraining order. Which I didn't get they had. Had the police shown up and asked, "What's going on here?" and they replied, "We don't serve that man..." they would have had to given a reason as to WHY. And it would have had to do with the fact that he WAS disturbing the peace or something similar. Otherwise, McDonald's very well MIGHT find themselves looking at a lawsuit. ESPECIALLY if the reason was the man's behavior... and such behavior was the result of a bona fide disability.

  Now, move on, please... because the sound of your crashing cymbal is beginning to hurt my ears... and your dark light is causing my eyes to sting. But you are certain free to take my wish for peace... and an ever-full stomach... for you and YOUR household... with you.

  A slave of Christ, the Light...

  SA
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  Voices

  Whether giving out of a 'good motive' or 'bad motive' ...is irrelavent in this situation in my opinion. you can sit and have it be a gift or 'a gift' ...whether glorification for yourself or another person. Whether it's for whatever it may mean... make others think your humble, or whatever. What does it matter to the person recieving the gift? or 'gift'? Does it matter?

  Yes we should ALL do it out of a 'good motive' ...and be a genuine gift. But in the end...whether you see it as a gift...'gift'...or bad or good...or whatever...in the end...giving food to another individual who's only means is to SURVIVE...and by helping their life can be extended is NEVER a bad thing. And what do they normally say? "God bless you" ...so what if one say 'May satan bless you" ... so what? Whether you did it for your own reasons or for another person...bottom line is: the person is fed at the end of the day. Their day has a little brightness in it for that day. It rejuvinates their hope and realization THEY ARE worth something...that a stranger has given them food. Their life DOES have some meaning. but most of all... They have food for the day to help them with their struggle.

  I wonder how much society CREATES homeless people by not helping them in their financial needs ...physiological needs...selfesteem needs...social acceptance...(all the maslows heirachy stuff) and ..then punish them for being homeless.

  "WHY DON'T YOU GET A JOB?"

  is it so easy to get a job with no social security number? drivers license? or a place to put on the application where it says 'Address.' Is it so easy to get a job when you don't have any clean clothes to make yourself look presentable? is it so EASY to get a job when you've fallen so far and become part of a social group of people that are REJECTED by society? Is a job so easy to maintain when you barely have any money for food (energy)? I work 40 hours a week...this week i'm working 56...and by the end of the day i'm exhausted...but i know I have energy still...my exhaustion would be nothing compared to someone who eats once every 4-5 days. Not to mention the labor work that a job demands on you. Instead of worrying about whether YOUR motive is GOOD or not...or if it's a 'gift' or gift... who cares? why not just worry about the OTHER person....regardless of your motive and just FEED THEM.

  Me
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  tec

  Voices - Well said.

  ...so what if one say 'May satan bless you" ... so what?

  I chuckled at this... but its true. Helping is helping. Deciding who deserves your help and who doesn't is judging.

  Tammy
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  palmtree67

  I have a social worker friend who works with the homeless here.

  I'll tell you a story she told me about one of the homeless men she helps:

  He has a dog, and an agreement with the animal shelter here that if he needs them to take the dog for a few days here and there, they will help him out and give the dog back.

  The dog got sick and needed a surgery that costed over $600. The man collected bottles and cans, managed to save up almost $300 and then asked the vet if he would do the surgery and let him pay the rest afterwards. The vet did the surgery for whatever the man had saved up and no more.

  This man isn't an alcoholic, or a drug addict. I don't know why he lives on the street. My friend has set him up in half-way homes several times, but he always ends up back on the street.

  And he hustles every day to get bottles and cans to feed himself and his dog.

  We can't judge these people or those that help them.

  "There, but for the grace of God, goes I."
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  cameo-d

  Voices: "in the end...giving food to another individual who's only means is to SURVIVE...and by helping their life can be extended is NEVER a bad thing. "

  At what price? By humiliating him, stomping on his dignity by making him the focus of a scene, and requiring his participation? Play for pay.

  Yes, I do think motive is very important.

  Many will say..." But Lord, didn't I feed the hungry in your name?"

  And Jesus will answer: "I know you not!"

  There is a right way and a wrong way. That is clear indication that motive determines what is right or wrong.

  If you can do it in a way that raises the self esteem of the recipient like the story above of giving the guy a break because he collected cans and made the only effort he knew how, now that is a good example.

  Otherwise, you enable mooches who have no ambition. And you do it for the personal satisfaction of appearing benevolent before others.

  Jesus said do your good works in secret. Not make a scene and imply threats to other people.

  If you can help others to help themselves...that is a gift of lifting your brother and truly caring.
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  watersprout

  imply threats to other people.

  EH??? What are you on about? Where are the threats implied?

  All this kind person did was fight for the homeless mans right to have a meal! This man spoke out against the injustice of it all. There are not enough people in this world who speak out for what is right.

  Peace and light
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  watersprout

  imply threats to other people.

  EH??? What are you on about? Where are the threats implied?

  All this kind person did was fight for the homeless mans right to have a meal! This man spoke out against the injustice of it all. There are not enough people in this world who speak out for what is right.

  Peace and light

  Have no idea how it ended up being posted twice! lol
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  Voices

  Cameo-d:

  At what price? By humiliating him, stomping on his dignity by making him the focus of a scene, and requiring his participation? Play for pay.

  Humiliating him? how? he has a sign that says 'hungry please help.' how am I humiliating him by GIVING him what he WANTS? Instead of ignoring him like the other 99% of the world society.

  You said:

  Yes, I do think motive is very important.

  My response:

  Motive has everything to do with it if it's pertaining to your OWN personal sefl development and reasoning. If YOU'RE trying to get in 'GOOD WITH GOD.' Unless someone is trying to take him into some sort of dangerious situation like 'i'll give you food, just come over here to Achwitz! this 'camp' thing we got going on, where you'll need to shovel some...uh...'ash' into the furnace. ' ...yeah then i can see how dangering some homeless persons LIFE can infact be a 'bad motive' ...where it brings HIM harm or others. The point I was trying to make is, TO THE HOMELESS MAN....what difference does it make of YOUR motive if he gets fed and never sees you again? there is a good chance that person would become very appreciative of the food...especially with 'Hungry please help' sign.

  You said:

  Many will say..." But Lord, didn't I feed the hungry in your name?"

  And Jesus will answer: "I know you not!"

  There is a right way and a wrong way. That is clear indication that motive determines what is right or wrong.

  My response:

  Again, this isn't about YOU. It's about the HOMELESS MAN. Many will say 'but Lord, didn't I give him food' ... and my response is...this isn't about YOU, or your MOTIVE, that pertains to YOU. EVEN if that is his (Christs) response...the point is...this person...homeless man...his LIFE just got better ...that day, cause YOU helped him...regardless of motive. HE (not YOU) probably DOESN'T CARE about your MOTIVE.

  when you 'HELP' someone...you sacrifice YOUR needs to assist THEIR needs (not always). Even if your motive is BAD, he STILL gets fed. You may not even WANT to help them...but who said it's easy?

  but if it IS about 'being good with God' and...making sure Christ knows you...sure...make sure you got your good motives in your hostler.

  But this is about doing a deed for someone to make sure you prolong their life and make the struggle a little less hard.

  I may have my issues with life and everything. But feeding someone...that's asking for food..even if it's bad motive...shouldn't matter about whether it's a 'good deed' or 'bad deed' so that your getting good with God or whatever ...but the focus should be the OTHER PERSON.

  Unfortunately, those that do things out of 'bad motives' ...usually don't. But there are those that still do...and because of it, someone got fed that day.

  You said:

  Otherwise, you enable mooches who have no ambition. And you do it for the personal satisfaction of appearing benevolent before others.

  I usually do this in secret...most of the time I don't tell people. There are sometimes where i can see how this might make me 'look good' in front of others...and that's not correct. That is incorrect thinking. So yes, i may need to improve on in that area. But again, until i'm completely SINNLESS ...perhaps others may be like 'okay until my motive is clean...and good...then i'm going to feed them.' Where i may be like 'okay i'm going to keep doing this so people are fed until i'm 'made perfect' in this act'

  that way, they're at least FED in the mean time.
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  Voices

  Oh .....

  p.s. I started doing this (feed the homeless thing) because I had a dream where I felt someone telling me 'feed the children' (food) ...or something. Not because I was trying to 'get in good with God'...or 'humiliate' them...or 'show off to others that i'm doing this'

  p.s.s. I also wanted to say, I am NOT the mcdonalds person that wrote to Shelby (AGuest) ...I am another person that wanted to comment. I cannot take credit for the bravery and act that that person did.

  Infact I didn't even read the other post until AFTER i had responded on this one. Which is why Aguest's comment, now makes more sense but..I was trying to figure out 'what...is she talking about? who?' I was merely speaking about the act of helping another perosn in need.

  Me