If perfection meant never dying, and if Adam and Eve were created perfect, then why would they have needed a tree of life in the first place?
Exactly.
The gnostics have an answer for that.
;-)
Adam and Eve and free will
by inbetween 125 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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palmtree67
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sabastious
The gnostics have an answer for that.
Is it 42?
-Sab
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PSacramento
The story of Adam and Eve is a symbolic one and Paul uses it as a symbol to:
Adam ( symbolic first man) abuses his free will and such, it is a lesson for all about wanting more than you need and what comes with being "like God".
Paul shows that Humans have NOT learned this lesson because they continue to do what Adam did, "want to be like God" as opposed to being WITH God.
That biggest of Sins - to want to be God and not to be WITH God, makes all humans "broken" and in need of fixing, the fixer is Jesus.
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notverylikely
So then do you have a point of reference for why that's so clear to you?
Sure. You and PSac saying it means things it doesn't say is my point of reference and tactic permission for me to add in whatever parts I want that aren't there.
Oh, the pretty much the entire old testament is a...well, testament, i guess, to how utterly insane god is.
I know it seems that way to others, but I'm just looking at God and the accounts attributed to him through the example that Christ showed us.
That was Jesus....
But when he spoke of life and death, it was usually (if not always) spiritual life and death.
Again, that was Jesus. He had a differet message. God spoke about, practiced, encouraged and apparently loved killing. The physical kind.
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notverylikely
So in the end, my so to say free will decision, was only a product of my upbringing, genetic disposition, influences from envrionment etc...just afterwards I claim, it was my free decsion, when it was not.
Sheesh. Not this shit again. Yes, you are the sum of your experiences, you can also choose to change or modify WHY you make decisions. Having the ability to use free will does not mean you use it all the time, or that making a decision based on experience ISN'T free will. People that make this type of argument seem to think that using experience to make a decision is somehow negating free will.
Is it 42?
That's the answer to "what's 6x7?" ;)
The story of Adam and Eve is a symbolic one and Paul uses it as a symbol to:
Bible doesn't say that :)
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tec
Sure. You and PSac saying it means things it doesn't say is my point of reference and tactic permission for me to add in whatever parts I want that aren't there. Oh, the pretty much the entire old testament is a...well, testament, i guess, to how utterly insane god is.
Yes, but I gave a reason - one that is even written in the bible - for my understanding. I didn't just pull it out of thin air, or from the words or actions of the people around me.
If you're thinking that I am choosing to believe the sayings of Jesus over anything else written - then yes, you would be right. Because a Christian follows Christ. Even the bible says to follow him.
Again, that was Jesus. He had a differet message. God spoke about, practiced, encouraged and apparently loved killing. The physical kind.
Jesus is the exact reflection of His Father. Seeing Jesus is seeing His Father. Everything He did was from his Father. God does not change. So Jesus did not have a different message. He had THE message.
Tammy
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Terry
Religiously minded people love to fill in the gaps with seemingly plausible speculation which smoothes out the wrinkles!
The Scriptures are written with enough floating concepts, metaphor, poetic implication and loaded terminology this is always possible.
You notice how words....common words....don't "mean" what they ordinarily mean when the text troubles us?
"You shall surely DIE..." isn't physical death (suddenly) since the first couple DID NOT die on that day.
Immediately the ordinary word "die" has to be...cries out to be...INTERPRETED metaphorically!
Scripture text is like clay. Squish it any old way you like except when you positively absolutely want it to be literal.
"Thou shalt not kill.." can be useful as long as you redefine "kill" as more specifically "murder" to get the Israelites out of hot water.
Great works of Literature become classics when each new generation of readers can project their own life and times into the text and reshape it enough for it to come alive FOR THEM.
The bible is a good example of a constantly reshaped story and characters.
The pre-Enlightenment God was a real beast like Allah for the Muslims is today.
The duties of the average pre-christian Jewish believer toward law and justice mirror today's fundamentalist Muslims and the Koran.
Modern belief tidies up and sweeps the horror under the carpet.
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sabastious
^ Terry can you imagine how many different ways people could interpret the post you just made if they could just "assign" different meanings to otherwise clear language? Just something that popped into my mind.
-Sab
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tec
Spiritual and physical death are both spoken of in the bible - so it is not 'out there' to apply one where the other doesn't make sense. If everything was understood right, then why did Jesus have to come and find the lost sheep that the Pharisees and scribes and teachers were abusing?
Just curious as to why its so hard to even consider?
Tammy