Do you believe the "Conscious Class" will be saved? (CHRISTIANS ONLY)

by brotherdan 98 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    I'm with you, Brotherdan. Being a Christian is an individual thing. It is the exact opposite of what the Borganization teaches. The Bible is NOT an organizational book, it IS a book for individuals. Salvation is NOT through an organization, it IS through the individual.

    On a side note, I am convinced that Stephen is sincere and well-meaning. That said, he is also a firm believer in the ungodly exclusivity propounded in the Bible (which is a product of the early Catholic Church). Sad that.

  • cattails


  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Mormons and JWs are similar in they believe Jesus is an angel and "a god".

    Mormons believe that Jesus is Jehovah. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus visits his "other sheep" in the Western Hemisphere:

    And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came. And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them: Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name--hear ye him. And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them. And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying: Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world. And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning. And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven. And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying: Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole Earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

    Jehovah's Witnesses, conversely, believe that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel.

    The Latter-day Saints ("Mormons") believe that when Adam and Eve transgressed, that Man needed a Mediator then, and that Mediator was Jehovah, who was later born into the world as Jesus. The New Testament writers understood this, but they intentionally withheld it, except for John. Instead, they differentiated between "God" and "Jesus." Why? Because they were sensitive to their audience, many of whom were converted Jews. Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of "God" in his vision, for example, and these references have confused the Jehovah's Witnesses and others. But John clearly knew and identified Jesus as Jehovah in his Apocalypse. All through the Old Testament, Jehovah was to come and judge the nations; but John said "the Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) Both Jesus and Jehovah were the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega. The Father, however, only communicated with Man to bear witness of the Son, nothing more. It was Jesus who spoke to Moses, and to Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

    Again, in the Book of Mormon, a prophet hundreds of years before the birth of Christ recorded:

    And [Jehovah] saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen? And he saith unto [Jehovah]: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood. And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this? And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me. And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak? And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie. And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. (Ether 3)

    So again, Jesus is Jehovah in LDS scripture.

    I don't think people will be damned for what they believe. God judges a man by the man's sincerety, which only God knows, for only God knows what is in a man's heart. So thus it is with the Jehovah's Witnesses and with all men. The only ones under condemnation are those who, knowing the truth, reject it. In short, a man cannot be saved or damned in ignorance. The Lord, being Just, judges men by what is in their hearts.

  • tec

    Brotherdan, do NOT let anyone tell you whether it is possible for you to be saved or not. That is between you and Christ - and Christ taught mercy and love.

    Being part of an organization does not save you. (imo)

    Not being part of an organization does not save you. (imo)

    Believing in Christ, and living by the love he taught... well, what else can you do but that? Are you staying in to help your family? Are you acting out of love for them?

    Not everyone is called to do the same thing. Some, like Moshe, would have most people speak up, denounce the WT publicly and harshly, and let the chips (or families) fall as they may. This is not a bad thing. Its standing up, and I fully respect it - I would be very tempted to do it myself were I in that position. But I also greatly respect staying to slowly and gently bring your family and loved ones out, and perhaps subtly get others to think in the meantime - this is not a bad thing either.

    Pray for mercy. Pray for guidance. Pray for strength.

    (I personally don't think you have anything to worry about. I believe you're acting in love. And you are very conscious and sincere about what Christ and God want of you. Just put your trust in them.)

    And remember - "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26

    Peace and love to you,


  • tec

    I would add, however, that doing a bible study and converting someone else to JW's when you know its wrong, would NOT being acting out of love for that person.

    I'm certain you already know this, though.


  • garyneal


    But does still being associated with this organization disqualify me as being a true Christian.

    If it does then I guess it disqualifies me too. I'm a never-was and never will be Jehovah's Witness who use to attend meetings with my wife and study the Bible with them. I had to walk away as painful as that was for me but I still associate with them from time to time.

    I can't honestly answer the question you posed. Since salvation comes from believing in Christ alone then I would have to say yes but as Stephen pointed out Mormons also believe in their version of Christ. Since you believe in the Deity of Christ it would seem, at least to me, that you are there.

    Anyway, it is not like people do not know your position. Your wife knows what you think now of the bOrg, as does some of the other witnesses, right? If you are not disfellowshipped yet, I would imagine it is because no one reported you, right? Surely when the time comes you will be tested in this manner.

  • garyneal

    I think conscious class witnesses are important if there is any chance for any real change in the bOrg.

    I think of what Raymond Franz quoted from the Worldwide Church of God in his book, Crisis of Conscious. Does anyone think this will happen in the bOrg? Not if there aren't any conscious class people inside it making changes.

  • transhuman68

    I am a sun-worshipper, so I shouldn't even be posting on this thread; but I am curious- what is it that you want to be 'saved' from?

  • Chalam

    Judgement under the law.



  • Chalam

    Mad Sweeney I'm with you, Brotherdan. Being a Christian is an individual thing. It is the exact opposite of what the Borganization teaches. The Bible is NOT an organizational book, it IS a book for individuals. Salvation is NOT through an organization, it IS through the individual.

    Amen, that individual is Jesus Christ :) Acts 2, Acts 4, Romans 10

    Mad Sweeney On a side note, I am convinced that Stephen is sincere and well-meaning. That said, he is also a firm believer in the ungodly exclusivity propounded in the Bible (which is a product of the early Catholic Church). Sad that.

    Is God inclusive or exclusive?

    Revelation 22:14-15 (New International Version)

    14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    1 Peter 2:8-10 (New International Version)

    8 and,
    "A stone that causes men to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

    9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    Romans 9:13 (New International Version)

    13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

    Isaiah 65:9 (New International Version)

    9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
    and from Judah those who will possess my mountains;
    my chosen people will inherit them,
    and there will my servants live.



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