by Dogpatch 270 Replies latest jw friends

  • Consfearacy

    "Essan said: Consfearacy, what is silly about this discussion is that, not only do your arguments consistently disregard the Bible's statements about this matter but they also directly contradict the Society's own statements on these matters, as other posters have pointed out to you. According to both the Bible and the Society, a "False Prophet" who also says some (possibly) true things, or is otherwise a nice guy, is still a "False Prophet", and is to be avoided by true Christians."

    God has two principle channels for communication: His inspired word and his holy spirit (active force).

    On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:22-26

    None of these qualities God instils as a result of his active force on human consciousness bestows the ability to foresee future events; prophesying. As an example; as a person grows in faith, through mental images (the mind's eye), the New World is vividly revealed and not just a concept a person has to be content with reading about on printed page. Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. For by means of this the men of old times had witness borne to them. (Hebrews 11:1-2) Peace is elaborated on further and the other qualities are also defined in more detail elsewhere in the Bible: Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God; and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4:6-7) Without God's spirit, going to the meetings and other aspects of theocratic activity would be rather mundane with no enjoyment, a routine of weekly activities with a promise for a “better tomorrow.”

    A “better tomorrow” is a concept you commonly hear from human politicians. Hearing the same thing from God without any qualifying evidence (a token in advance) isn't well received because we live in the here and now. By means of him also, after you believed, you were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise. Ephesians 1:13-14

    All true Christians receive the same spirit as the faithful and discreet slave, that's why they are trusted by true Christians everywhere as a channel of communication used by God to keep the organization centered and to render decisions on certain matters. This doesn't mean they supersede the Bible or are infallible. Admission to human error is as follows:

    uw chap. 15 pp. 120-121 par. 8 How Does Jehovah Direct His Organization?

    At times, of course, questions about doctrine and procedure might arise. What then? The 15th chapter of Acts tells how an issue regarding requirements for Gentile converts was resolved. It was referred to the apostles and older men at Jerusalem, who served as a central governing body. Those older men were not infallible; they were not persons who never made a mistake.(Compare Galatians 2:11-14.) But God used them. They considered what the inspired Scriptures said on the subject at hand as well as the evidence of the operation of God’s spirit in opening up the Gentile field, and then they rendered a decision. God blessed that arrangement.(Acts 15:1-29; 16:4, 5) From that central body, individuals were also sent out to further the preaching of the good news in harmony with what the Lord himself had authorized.—Acts 8:14; Gal. 2:9.

    Deliberately and consistently lying out of a selfish motive is the identifying mark of a false prophet.

    “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to your in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits your will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits your will recognize those [men]. Matthew 7:15-20

    Referring to a person as a ravenous wolf is indicative of works of the flesh:

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. Galatians 5:19-21

    If you did not progress in the nine fruits that should be evidenced in the lives of those who have God’s Spirit, you may try enlightening me about your experience communicating with Jehovah's Witnesses.

  • chrisjoel

    God has two principle channels for communication: His inspired word and his holy spirit (active force).


    Holy crap ..you have a copy of the original bible? cuz none of what we have today is inspired! what do you mean. Do you mean the slant the JWs put into NWT so as to showcase their doctrines so that you can call it inspired? Inspired how then? The holy spirit inspired Fred Franz and the rest of the translation committee? Cuz if thats what you mean then SHOULDNT the holy spirit have come through when they made all THEM PREDICTIONS?

  • chrisjoel

    Why JWs are unreliable and why they can be called false.

    First when they say the that the light gets brigher and brighter it usually refers to an ORGANIZATIONAL understanding with the guidance of the holy spirit.

    But then on the OTHER HAND it THERE ARE TIMES it takes on a different meaning. Like when Rutherford himself said that it was revealed to him that the great crowd doctrine of Rev7 9, and the other sheep of John 10 were the same group , HE GOT" lightning flashes in the spiritual temple" in 1935. You can add to that that the sociey has called itself a prophet organization.

    Therefore when the Society speaks DOGMATICALLY on a subject or a date, as seen in the past, they have made those claims of proof but when things go wrong progressive revelation just means enhanced knowledge.

    All the predictions by Russell and Rutherford never happened. All the chronlogies from the past have been abandoned.

    So JWs now always like to say that they arent inspired prophets but Jehovah is guiding them. But what we always get is a distinction without a difference. Be dogmatic about certain things but when they dont happen then well we arent infallble or inspired.

    Thats not very reliable or truthful.

  • moomanchu
  • moomanchu
  • jookbeard

    fantastic scans Moom, wonder what Debater would answer to those? The WTS have answered anyone's question who accuses them of being false prophets through their own writings amazing!

  • designs

    Under the definition of Sardonic: Trinitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses going at each other.

  • Essan


    Your arguments have been totally destroyed over several pages by several posters. You have completely ignored clear Scriptures and even the Society's own explicit comments on these matters. If I thought that your arguments were persuasive or appeared reasonable, I might have continued to address all of them at length, for the sake of any who may be following the discussion rather than for your sake, because you seem incapable of reason. But frankly, I doubt that anyone reading what you have said could fail to see the that you have absolutely no case and are generally talking irrelevancies and nonsense, so there is no need for me to respond at length to everything you wrote. You do an excellent job of overturning your own reasoning without my help. However, I will address a few points.

    You said: None of these qualities God instils as a result of his active force on human consciousness bestows the ability to foresee future events; prophesying.

    OK, so if they didn't have this capacity, then this is another reason why The Society and it's leaders should NEVER have attempted to predict dates regarding future events and should never have preached these dates as central to their doctrine, as "God's mouthpiece" etc, and should not have insisted that these date predictions be accepted by their followers as "indisputable fact", misleading and stumbling them! They should never have pretended to have a capacity they did not have! The Society and it's leaders were thus presumptuous in the extreme!:

    "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say... must be put to death... If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." - Deut 18:20-22.

    Accurate interpretation - "interpretations belong to God" - of sacred secrets, such as those contained in the Bible, is also the work of prophets, such as Daniel. The Society attempted this, insisted they were right, and failed spectacularly and repeatedly! If you presumptuously attempt the work of a prophet of God, and fail, what does that make you?

    You said: Deliberately and consistently lying out of a selfish motive is the identifying mark of a false prophet.

    No, the Bible is clear about what identifies a false prophet and Scriptural proofs are littered here over the previous pages, but you ignore them. You ignore the Bible, the Society itself and now, basic reasoning. This is so simple a small child could understand it it. We are talking 1 + 1 = 2, here! That you cannot, or will not, understand is testimony to the degree to which you willing to retard your own reasoning abilities in order to protect the Society. So I'll keep this as simple as possible:

    What does the Bible call someone who lies? A "Liar". Lying is the identifying mark of a '"Liar".

    What does the Bible call someone who makes false predictions? A "False Prophet". The identifying mark of a "False Prophet" is "false prophesy", which as Deut. 18 & Matt 24 shows includes prominently: failed predictions.

    So, to recap:

    Lying = 'Liar'

    False Prophesying = "False Prophet"

    It's really very, very simple. But let's imagine that deliberate lying for selfish motive was the identifying mark of a False Prophet as you falsely claim - I and others have already proven that the Society is Lying NOW about what it preached in the past, such as regarding 1914. So, by the Bible's standards the Society is a False Prophet because of it's failed predictions and by your reasoning the Society is a False prophet because it is currently a deliberate liar. Either way....

  • Think About It
    Think About It

    Some people consider Hal Lindsey a False Prophet. I remember the sensationalism of his book "The Late Great Planet Earth". See the article below.

    Hal Lindsey: False Prophet! Let's judge Hal Lindsey by his own words: “Now I am about to walk into the Lion’s Den. Perhaps it would be wise to follow Churchill’s tactic when he said, ‘You know I always avoid prophesying beforehand, it is a much better policy to prophesy after the events have taken place.’” Hal Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth , p. 181 He should've heeded his own words. Hal Lindsey prophecies in his book, "The Late Great Planet Earth", that the Soviet Union would be the Empire of the Anti-Christ. Well, the USSR no longer exists and now Hal Lindsey has changed his view. His prophecy did not come true. What does he say about false prophets himself? “And Moses gave the answer -- the true test of a prophet: ‘When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken’ (Dueteronomy 18:22).” Hal Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth, p. 20 He also admitted that if it turned out he was wrong that he would be a “bum.” So shall it be! Hal Lindsey also prophesied that Jesus would return within 40 years of the birth of the nation of Israel (citing Matthew 24 and the budding of the fig tree). The 80's have come and gone Hal... and we're still here. I still haven't heard Hal tell anyone he's a bum. Who is Hal Lindsey? In 1970 Lindsey left Campus Crusade to begin the Jesus Christ Light and Power Company, a youth oriented ministry on the Los Angeles campus of the University of California (UCLA). Previous to this he had begun to compile a number of eschatologically based sermons publishing them under the title The Late Great Planet Earth later that year. The book became an overnight best seller hitting on a raw nerve of excitement concerning the close proximation of the second coming of Christ. The Late Great Planet Earth, has sold 30,000,000 copies Hal Lindsey has continually used sensationalism to sell his writings. He’s become a very wealthy man merchandising the Word of God. On page 16 he tells us,'The Future' is big business." He knows it well. He makes fools of the gullible and deceives the masses. The money keeps rolling in. Recently he has written a new pseudo-religious rant called "Iran could ignite catastrophe" again trying to create panic and fear in the heart of the Believer. As my dad always says... "Prophecy is not designed to create fear in the Believer but rather to give us a sense of peace because we will know what's going to happen. We know where fear comes from, it comes from Satan... not G-d. Hal Lindsey is currently married to his third wife, having divorced his previous two. His third wife and church recently gave him the boot for his sexcapades. I'll quote him again... In his book Countdown to Armageddon, its message is obvious from the outside. Something was going to occur in the 1980’s: Tribulation and Armageddon. Reasoning to support that expectation is found on page 12, where Hal Lindsey answers a skeptic’s question: “Why do you think that all the various prophecies will come to pass during this generation?” (Note: a generation is 40 years, Lindsey agrees with that) He answered: “The answer is simple. The prophets told us that the rebirth of Israel -- no other event -- would be the sign that the countdown has begun. Since that rebirth, the rest of the prophecies have begun to be fulfilled quite rapidly. For this reason I am convinced that we are now in the unique time so clearly and precisely forecast by the Hebrew prophets" My final judgment on Hal.... from his own book... The only grade allowed [for a true prophet] was one of 100 percent accuracy. Anything less would doom the prophet to death by stoning, which was the method of capital punishment in those days (Deuteronomy 13:1-11).” p. 20. He's right, he'd have been stoned till death by now. Why do you still listen to him? Why do I still see him on television? Now by saying he’s a false prophet does that mean he’s not a nice man? No, he’s a nice enough guy. Is he Saved? Could be. He does seem to care about Israel but that doesn’t take away from the fact that he’s a proven false Prophet. “Well, he just made a few mistakes”, you say. Well then we should look at it your way! Certainly not the way G-d sees it. Because G-d said kill the False Prophets. I think I have to go with G-d on this one, He’s usually right. Hal Lindsey: False Prophet

    Think About It
  • designs

    So Trinitarian Christianity going around terrorizing the world by telling them that if they don't believe as they do means they will end up in the Hot Seat in front of their charcoal spitting god isn't the biggest form of False Prophecy....

    Dramatic Irony: Trinitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses going at each other

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