Flipper - your patience astounds me! It is so scary how mind controlled some people are. It runs so deep that they actually BELIEVE that what they say is coming from themselves.
If I were to learn the lyrics to a song, like "Looks Like We Made It" by Barry Manilow, or "My Girl" by The Temptations, or "How Do I Live" by LeAnn Rimes," and after studying them and singing them for a period of time came to believe I knew the lyrics to all three of these songs, would you describe my belief that I know the lyrics to these songs as "mind control"? Let me ask you a different question:
Have you heard folks say, "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone"? Typically they will credit Jesus with making this statement, and based on this statement argue that no one has the right to cast stones at or criticize anyone else since none of us are without sin, right? Do you think it to be a case of "mind control" that you believe this statement is coming from you?
Have you ever read the Bible? I mean, have you ever really read the Bible as you would, say, a novel? Assuming that you have ever read the Bible, do you recall reading somewhere in the Bible the statement, "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone"? Such a statement can be found in the NWT and in other Bibles as well, but did you know that Jesus never made such a statement? Do you think it to be a case of "mind control" that you now believe that Jesus made this statement when he really didn't make it at all?
Whenever I make a statement, clearly, it comes from me. Whether the statement I make be true or false, if I make it, even if I should qualifying it in some way, then clearly that statement comes from me. I do not have to believe the statement to be true, but if I make it, then it clearly comes from me. If I quote something that you yourself have said, even if I don't believe one word of your statement, if I say it, then it is clear that this statement came from me. Do you think it to be a case of "mind control" should I repeat a statement that originated with you? What if it were you that repeated one of my statements: Do you think it to be a case of "mind control" should you repeat a statement of mine, one that originated with me? Now were you to repeat one of my statements, would that meant that you necessarily subscribe to this statement of mine as being a true statement? Would it be a case of "mind control" should you repeat one of my statements to someone, even if you don't yourself believe there to be any truth to my statement?
The fact that the English language has been re-written to [suit] false prophesy over and over again is crazy.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around this statement of yours. Has the French language been rewritten also so that the meaning of these French words provide support for what things are published in French language versions of the Watchtower? Or, is it true that the English. German and Italian languages have all been rewritten in such a way so that the definitions of English words, German words and Italian words provide support for what things are published in English language, German language and Italian language versions of the Watchtower? If this is what you are saying here, then one would have to be crazy to believe this statement of yours has any merit.
I guess the fact that the Bible says nobody know the day or the hour is completely irrelevant and they must keep seeking such day and hour and generation.
Are you suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses or the WTS or the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are out to make Jesus a liar by seeking the day and hour," when Jesus stated at Matthew 24:30 that no man knows "the day or hour"? You mentioned "generation," but Jehovah's Witnesses do not take the view that our understanding as to what it was Jesus meant at Matthew 24:34 when he said there that "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things [that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 and 25] occur" is "completely irrelevant."
Knowing the season for the Lord's arrival engenders faith in a world where faith can be so easily eroded, so this would be a relevant inquiry for Christians to make, which is exactly the kind of inquiry that Jesus' disciples made of him after Jesus' resurrection when he was asked by them, "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" (Acts 1:6)
Alerting the Jews to the Roman armies that were going to bring an assault on Jerusalem and on its temple, and "great tribulation" to the Jews, at Luke 19:44 Jesus told them that "they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." At Matthew 24:15, 16, Jesus told his disciples to "use discernment" when interpreting his words: "When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Ju·de'a begin fleeing to the mountains."
In referring to "the disgusting thing that causes desolation," Jesus spoke in code that could only be understood by the discerning Christians, as the Jews would be familiar with Daniel's prophecy at Daniel 9:27, which reads, in pertinent part, "And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation..." The ensigns borne by the Roman army were virtual idols, that were considered disgusting by the Jews, so when the Romans had besieged Jerusalem, surrounded it and had begun to undermine the walls of the temple that the Jews had deemed "a holy place, Christians would discern Jesus to have been saying to them that "when they should see the Romans standing in Jerusalem" they should then flee to the mountains at their first opportunity to do so.
Now what occurred in 66 AD and later in 70 AD as a "great tribulation" to the Jews in their "holy place" was the minor fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. However, since we do not yet know the details as to how the major fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy will occur, we will have to wait for the actual fulfillment of it to know all of the details as it will affect us today, but discernment is necessary in order to interpret Jesus' words at Matthew 24:15, 16.
At Luke 21:29-32, Jesus provided this illustration: "Note the fig tree and all the other trees: When they are already in the bud, by observing it you know for yourselves that now the summer is near. In this way you also, when you see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur."
This is why Jehovah's Witnesses are so interested in the season as to how far along "this generation" is before the "great tribulation" occurs and because the entire household of faith is quite interested in discerning the season, the meaning of Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 is relevant to all Jehovah's Witnesses. If you should read Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 regarding "this generation" without discernment, then you cannot properly interpret the meaning of Jesus' words.
Major and minor prophecies? Yes, that is just what Jesus meant. He meant the first generation will be 37 years but the major fulfillment will be much longer and has just now informed the GB in Brooklyn. I guess Holy Spirit gets confused sometimes and has to go back and forth on what it really means.
In the minor fulfillment, this "first generation" was impacted by the great tribulation that destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD, some 37 years after Jesus' prophecy, and while in hindsight we know there were 37 years between when Jesus uttered this prophecy and its fulfillment, Jesus wasn't predicting a number of years at all, but an event in a generation of the sign that lasted for a period of 37 years. In the major fulfillment, however, we know that some 96 years have elapsed between the year 1914, which was the beginning of the sign of Christ's presence and the current year of 2010, so we know that the generation of the sign is a period of at least 96 years and counting.
Not one member of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses can do more than guess as to the length of this generation since Jesus did say that no one, but the Father knows "the day or hour" when the end of this world -- Armageddon -- would begin. All Christians today -- and by this I refer to Jehovah's Witnesses, including the governing body -- rely upon what the holy spirit says in God's word in order to understand the written word of God. To some this may sound redundant and to others this may be an incomprehensible statement, but I'm going to explain what it means when I say here that Jehovah's Witnesses "rely upon the holy spirit to understand the written word of God."
Many of the folks that actively participate in this thread and in other threads on this forum were formerly associated with Jehovah's Witnesses in some capacity. Some here are dedicated and baptized servants that have decided to get off that narrow road and join the rest of the world on that broad road; not that this decision was the best decision that they could have made IMO, but this was their choice, and I respect their right to have made this choice. Some here have studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, but for whatever reason elected not to become dedicated Christians, and this was their choice and I respect their right to have made this choice. Please note carefully to the following three (3) examples:
Those who are dedicated Witnesses of Jehovah must admit that they only came to know that there is no such thing as an immortal human soul, for they know from one of Jehovah's Witnesses that the soul dies, it having been pointed out to them in God's written word where the holy spirit says, quote: "The soul that is sinning -- it itself will die." The holy spirit says this at Ezekiel 18:4, 20.
Those who are dedicated Witnesses of Jehovah must admit that they only came to know that there is no such thing as a hellfire of torment to which the wicked are consigned after their death, for they know from one of Jehovah's Witnesses that the "those under the ground" will receive a resurrection, it having been pointed out to them in God's written word where the holy spirit says, quote: "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." The holy spirit says this at Acts 24:15.
In addition to what the angels in heaven ("those in heaven") and the survivors of the great tribulation ("those on earth") will already be doing, the resurrected dead ("those under the ground") will likewise have to bend the knee in acknowledgment of the fact that "Jesus Christ is Lord." The holy spirit says at Philippians 2:10, 11, quote: "That Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
To say that the "Holy Spirit gets confused," when by the words "holy spirit," to what we are referring in each of these examples is to the written word of God, that is to say, we are referring to what the Bible states, this notion of the holy spirit becoming "confused" is indicative of confusion as to what the holy spirit itself is. The holy spirit has often been described as a force, even God's active force, the way in which God accomplishes His will. But what exactly is meant when we say that the spirit is "a force"?
Well, what is the force of your own words? Let's say that, on a Monday, you were to have told the payee on the check you had written the following:
I will writ e you a check #2001 for the asking price of the automobile, but do not deposit the check or make an attempt to cash the check before Friday.
Would you say that spirit of your own words would be that your check #2001 should not be deposited or cashed until Friday? If your check were deposited on a Tuesday, a Wednesday or a Thursday, so that "NSF" fees are incurred as a result of the payee's ignoring the force of your words, would you say that the force or the spirit of the words "do not deposit the check ... before Friday" was honored by the payee?
The spirit of your words was that the payee should not walk your check #2001 into a bank or deposit this check until Friday. The force of your words doesn't take on the character of holy spirit, but they definitely had force since, if the spirit of your words were acknowledged by the payee, then no attempt would be made before Friday to cash or otherwise deposit the check. Now let's refer back to the spirit of God's word, the force that the written word of God should have on those that read and respect the things that God says in the Bible.
Jehovah's Witnesses, including the governing body, rely upon the holy spirit to understand the written word of God. Consequently, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the soul is not immortal, because the holy spirit says, "The soul that is sinning -- it itself will die." Where? At Ezekiel 18:4, 20. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that there will be a resurrection, because the holy spirit says, "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." Where? At Acts 24:15. Jehovah's Witneses believe that everyone in heaven and on earth, as well as those who will be resurrected, will all acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, because the holy spirit says, "Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Where? At Philippians 2:10, 11.
In reality, the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses reads the Bible seeking to get Jehovah's mind, Jehovah's thinking, in what things He has provided in his written word, and based upon what it has been able to discern from their reading of the Bible and from the comments made by other Jehovah's Witnesses from their reading of the Bible also, it is reasonable to conclude at this time that the word "generation" to be Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 is a period of time, and that by "this generation" what Jesus had in mind was the generation that began in 1914 and that will end sometime after the great tribulation.
To be sure, the holy spirit doesn't get confused. The Bible says what it says, but Christians endeavor to comprehend what the holy spirit says, and for anyone to contradict what the holy spirit says is to grieve God's spirit.
But that's okay because Pluto is no longer considered a planet!
I only mentioned the fact that Pluto is no longer considered to be a planet to make the point that whatever it is Jehovah's Witnesses formerly believed with respect to the meaning of "ths generation" at Matthew 24:34 is analogous to what folks used to believe as to Pluto being a planet. Just as we no longer consider Pluto be a planet, we no longer believe what things we formerly believed to have been the meaning of "this generation" at Matthew24:34 based on the fact that 96 years has passed between1914 and 2010, and our reading of Exodus 1:6. You want to deride me for making the analogy, but I submit that this is would be par for the course if you did not understand my analogy. I don't think the analogy was "high-brow" or that it required an intellectual to comprehend it, but perhaps I was mistaken and only a genius could understand it.
As the kids say, "My bad."
I've notice that the word hate is used so fast by some people - it's like they love for people to hate them. I guess it makes them feel better that they are hated and persecuted by the world. They grope for hate when there is no hate. That means they have the truth. They don't see that they are the ones who hate. How sad! Jesus taught love not hate. I guess one is not allowed to speak their mind without being considered hateful. I guess people with differing opinions than the WTS are hateful. You are the last person I would consider hateful! Your posts are kind and loving even if in disagreement with another.
I realize that your words here were to the OP (@flipper) and not to me, but I don't believe I said a thing about @flipper was hateful. I indicated that if he wanted to hate the WTS, the governing body, other Jehovah's Witnesses or even me, that it was his prerogative to do so.
Why do jw's bring up Pluto whenever you point out their erroneous new light theology?
Why do you subscribe my analogy about Pluto to all Jehovah's Witnesses generally? Is it because I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses that you believe that all other Jehovah's Witnesses must likewise subscribe to my analogy? If so, ok, but I don't believe it to be true that all Jehovah's Witnesses believe the same things, except when it comes to Bible teachings (and my analogy about the dwaft planet Pluto has nothing at all to do with the Bible).
Scientists do not claim to speak for God! they do not claim to have the only 'channel' to God. They don't even claim their theories are 100% correct, that is why they are theories not facts. That is why they have debate in the scientific community!
Jesus became God's greatest prophet or channel of communication through whom God conveyed information to benefit mankind. Then in 33 AD, Christians became an organized body of preachers through whom God also conveyed vital information to benefit mankind, the Christian congregation became an organization of preachers. Just as there was a progression of Bible truths that were revealed after a period of time to the early Christian congregation -- for example, in 49 AD with respect to circumcision -- where adjustments to their previous understanding needed to be made, a progression of Bible truths have been revealed to the Christian congregation today where adjustments to our previous understanding of these things needed to be made. Jehovah's Witnesses do not proffer theories, for what things we believe and teach others is based on Bible truth, and not the speculations of men, as is the case in the scientific community.
Can you imagine debate about the word generation in a kh or during a meeting? If you claim to speak for God you darn well better get it right or you WILL be labeled a false prophet.
I cannot imagine debating the word "generation" in a Kingdom Hall or in any congregational meeting, but I can imagine discussions involving the meaning and use of the word "generation" in the Bible being had since such discussions take place all of the time among God's people, and not just among members of the governing body. If anyone should label Jehovah's Witnesses as "false prophets," this label would not be appropriate, for a true prophet is someone that speaks for Jehovah, and "speak for Jehovah" is what Jehovah's Witnesses endeavor to do.
jw's want their cake and eat it too, usually they don't like scientists and claim they are wrong, carbon dating is wrong, etc..etc... and now they want to pull out what scientists do and say to prove a jw point?
What are you talking about here? Jehovah's Witnesses are not anti-science. Carbon dating, which you mention here for some unknown reason is a flawed dating system, and not just Jehovah's Witnesses know and acknowledge this fact. Why do you mention carbon dating at all? Is this some kind of strawman that you decided to erect in order to maybe jettison my analogy about the change of definition regarding Pluto. So what?