Some Question(s) for Debator...

by AGuest 42 Replies latest jw experiences

  • AGuest

    Greetings... and may you have peace!

    I would like to ask you... and you please, tell me, if you can, WHY:

    1. The Witnesses are now out in full force doing "street work"... in light of Christ's words at Matthew 6:5?

    2. The "elders" etc., pray publicly, from the podium... in light of Christ's words at Matthew 6:6?

    3. The WTBTS teach that only a small flock should partake of the flesh and blood, when Christ is recorded to say, at John 6:49, that he came down from heaven "so that ANYONE may eat"... and not die?

    4. The WTBTS teaches that some will live forever WITHOUT eating/drinking the flesh/blood of Christ, when Christ is recorded to say, at John 6:53, "UNLESS you eat the flesh of the son of man AND drink his blood... you have NO life in yourselves"?

    5. The WTBTS teaches that people will be resurrected to life (indeed, everlasting life!) WITHOUT eating and drinking, when Christ is recorded to say, at John 6:54, that "He that FEEDS ON MY FLESH and DRINKS MY BLOOD... has everlasting life... and I SHALL RESURRECT HIM..."? (And in light of this, HOW do those who DON'T eat and drink GET everlasting life? How do they GET resurrected?)

    6. The WTBTS teaches that the "little flock" is ultimately something DIFFERENT from the "other sheep"... and so have different... ummmm... capabilities (such as hearing Christ's voice)... when Christ is recorded to say of the other sheep, at John 10:16: "... those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd? So, that...

    7. The WTBTS teaches that the are two "hopes" in direct contrast to Paul, who wrote, at Ephesians 4:4... that there is only ONE hope?

    8. The WTBTS teaches that Christ is Michael the Arkangel, when:

    a. It asks, at Hebrews 1:5, "... to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”?" and

    b. Speaking of their respective voices (Christ's and Michael's), it says of Christ, at Revelation 1:15, that HIS voice "was as the sound of many waters"... and, of Michael, at Revelation 1:10 (as corroborated by Revelation 1:1 and 4:1), that HIS voice was "as of a trumpet"?

    9. That the WTBTS teaches that Judas was NOT at my Lord's last evening meal with his disciples, indeed, wasn't present when my Lord instituted the Covenant with the 12 tribes, when it states, at Luke 22:15-21:

    "... he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I suffer; for I tell YOU , I will not eat it again until it becomes fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”And, accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves; for I tell YOU , From now on I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of God arrives. Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf. But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table." (And please, don't regurgitate the WTBTS' false claim that "Luke is out of order," because Luke WRITES, OF this account: "I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in [logical]l order to you, O Theophilus" and note, the word "logical" does NOT appear in the original Greek; rather, it is the Greek word "kathexes" which means "one after another, successively, in order...")

    and, at John 13:2-30 (the pertinent parts which I will summarize, below, but certainly feel free to read the entire account):

    " And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him; ... He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded. ... If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. ... I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. ... When [Jesus] had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. ... He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, 'Lord, who is it?' [Jesus] answered, 'He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it].' And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. ... And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said [Jesus[ unto him, 'That thou doest, do quickly.' ... He thenhaving received the sop went immediately out..."

    And we'll stop there for now. While you are thinking (praying?) on how to respond, dear one, I am directed by my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Son and Christ, of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH (Psalm 68:4) of Armies, to say to you:

    You are here, in this place, dear one because you are doubting... and such doubt is causing you to fear. But fear NOT... for it is not your faith in God that needs examination, but your faith in those you follow. They are blind guides, which is why you are unable to reconcile what they teach... with what the Spirit is revealing to YOU as being truth. You have been captive, however, and do not know what it is like to live... as a FREE person. That freedom, however, can ONLY be found IN the Son of God (Romans 8:32, 36), the Holy One of Israel... who is the TRUTH (John 14:6) and who says to you... and to all: "Come to ME... and drink! Come to ME, all you who are toiling and loaded down!"

    May you, too, then, hear, dear Debator... when the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17; see, NWT Ref. Bible App. 1d) and the Bride say to YOU:

    "Come! Take 'life's water'... free!"

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,


  • dgp

    I have another question for Debator. I know that the Jehovah's witnesses claim that the Bible contains a chronology in whose virtue the end keeps being imminent. I read the explanation of how the chronology goes. Forget about 587/607 BC. What I haven't been able to find, anywhere, is why we have to believe that such a chronology is right, instead of just being a man reading too much into the Bible. Can you explain that to me?

  • cantleave

    Shelby great questions. I wait for debator's response with anticipation.

  • The Finger
    The Finger


    Thank you,

    reading some of your recent posts have clarified something I have thought for awhile.

  • debator

    Hi Aguest

    I have to go out but I will take a good look at your questions later, a quick glance already shows me that we will disagree a lot. The first two are simply you hurling accusations at witnesses and taking scripture out of context to apply itto something it doesn't cover. but I will speak more on this later.

  • Chalam

    Many of my favourites listed here Shelby :)

    I'd like to add another question, why is Jesus called the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the exact same titles as the Father? Revelation 1, Revelation 21, Revelation 22



  • Soldier77

    Good questions AGuest. Regardless of what debator comes back with, I'm going to do some research on these and add them to my list of things to prove the WBTS wrong.

  • Chalam

    debator The first two are simply you hurling accusations at witnesses and taking scripture out of context to apply itto something it doesn't cover. but I will speak more on this later.

    I kind of understand, the same points can me made to anyone evangelising or praying in public.

    My advice is forget the starter and move right on to the main course, starting at question 3 :)



    Hi Aguest
    I have to go out but I will take a good look at your questions later, a quick glance already shows me that we will disagree a lot.
    The first two are simply you hurling accusations at witnesses and taking scripture out of context to apply itto something it doesn't cover.
    but I will speak more on this later......Debator


    The very 1st thing you need to understand is..

    Jehovah`s Witness`s and the WBT$ are not one and the same..

    You introductory post on this thread shows you don`t have a clue..

    Your will have to do much better than that.. If your going to attempt,to debate Shelby..

    ........................... ...OUTLAW

  • AGuest

    Dearest Debator... may you have peace!

    I totally understand, based on what you've been taught by men, how you would think I am taking the first two out of context. I assure... I am not. Since I don't lean on my own understanding of these things but, like the apostles/disciples, allow the Christ to "fully open the meaning" of scripture... and non-scripture... that is written about him or references what he is recorded to have said... and since I don't follow men but allow him, the Holy Spirit, to "lead [me] into all truth,"... and since, therefore, it is the anointing I received from HIM, and not MEN, that teaches me... I am directed by that Source, my Lord and master, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, to "expound the way of God more accurately to you..." as Priscilla and Aquila are recorded to have done for Apollos, a man "aglow with the spirit," which you do not claim to be. I do so in the same spirit of love... and humility... and I am sure they did.

    The Witnesses are now out in full force doing "street work"... in light of Christ's words at Matthew 6:5...

    At Matthew 6:5 (and, note, I will use the NWT Ref. Bible so that you will not feel that I am trying to mislead you...), Christ is recorded to have said:

    "... when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men."

    Let's start with the subject of "pray[ing] standing in the synagogues." At the time my Lord made this statement, dear one, a "synagogue" was a public place where the men of Judah (women were not permitted to attend) gathered to discuss the scriptures, Laws, their close community, and matters related to their enemies and captivity (they were started in Babylon when the Jews were exiled there, and the "custom" was continued when they returned to Jerusalem). Today, there is the connotation that it is limited to Jewish places of worship. However, today, such places are called "temples," and not so much "synagogues", although, in some places they are referred to as synagogues (sometimes, however, the JCC is called the "synagogue").

    At the time my Lord was recorded, however, the ONLY AUTHORIZED place of WORSHIP... WAS the Temple. It was there that offerings were made and prayers were offered up by the priests (and only the priests). The Most Holy One of Israel never established synagogues... or told Israel/Judah to do so. Nor... did Christ. MEN created those places... then... and now. Now, I know you might want to refer to Paul at this point and the "congregations" he addressed. Those congregations, however, met in individual houses. They still do today. That's because they know there is no PLACE to go away to... but only a WHOM. And wherever two or more are gathered... IN HIS NAME... he is there, also.

    For CHRIST, therefore, a "synagogue" TODAY... is the SAME as it was then (because although earthling MAN might change... HE is the SAME - yesterday, today, AND tomorrow). And a Kingdom Hall, dear one, is a "synagogue"... for all intents and purposes. It is where Jehovah's Witnesses "gather" to "discuss" the scriptures, Laws, their close community, and matters related to their enemies (here, "the world" - which at one time included the United Nations but since they became active members of that organization at some point that apparently is no longer the case - haven't seen a WT or Awake! article decrying that entity in a LONG time. And, yes, I know, they no longer have a membership but that wasn't entirely THEIR choice).

    There is more: only MEN are allowed to teach there (excluding a brief part on the Theocratic Ministry School - which is really kind of curious, considering the ratio of women to men in that organization)... and all of their meetings are open to the public (now), with at least one actually CALLED a "public" meeting... the "Public Talk." And... these men pray... STANDING... at the podium... in such "synagogues."

    Okay, now, let's address subject of "on the corners of the broadways to be visible by men."

    At that time, the "broadways," were the main access roads for travel and commerce. They were wider than the ruts made by rustic carts, oxen, bulls, and people pushing handcarts. Thus, they were the BROAD ways (and, in some instances, the MAIN streets). Usually, the market places were prominent along these ways because it was more likely that a merchant would come across a traveler there than if he set up his tent on one of the smaller roads. Also, the smaller roads were much more dangerous as there were less people and so a greater likelihood that someone would be robbed.

    TODAY... those "broadways" are the main streets of a city or town. It is not, for example, usually the street on which your house is situated, but more likely where there are BUSINESSES and commerce going on. And much more traveled. And TODAY... the ONLY people you see ON such streets "praying, at times, are Jehovah's Witnesses... with the exception of those who also "preach" on the streets in cities like San Francisco, New York, etc. But unless you GO to such cities, you would never SEE such folk; however, you can see Jehovah's Witnesses on the main streets... indeed, even on the CORNERS, at times... in even the smallest town, the tiniest hamlet. And they are THERE... TO BE VISIBLE TO MEN. Indeed, that is the very premise behind the WTBTS directive to GO "out in street work" - to be VISIBLE. To whom? God? The angles? That can't be, as I don't recall that they "place magazines" with God... or the angels. So, no... visible... to [the] men with whom they talk and/or place literature.

    And, I know you are going to say that they don't pray while out there. Unfortunately, my Lord has directed me to correct that misassumption and expound THAT truth to you more accurately, as well. First, at one time they DID pray while out there. On loudspeakers, as well. That they no longer do so in that manner only raises the question as to WHO was "teaching" them then, when they did? Christ? Can't be as, again, HE... is the SAME... yesterday, today... and tomorrow. But the word of my Lord is that even if they don't it in such a manner today, they are still "praying"... i.e., "offering a message of praise/glory to God," which IS prayer... even if silent.

    The "crime" here, though, isn't the offering of the message: it is the offering... SO AS TO BE VISIBLE BY MEN. Which takes us to the next point.

    Along with them and their members standing in the broadways:

    The "elders" etc., pray publicly, from the podium... in light of Christ's words at Matthew 6:6

    Let's take a look at those words, again from the NWT:

    "You, however, when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you."

    Now, again, I know that based on what you've been taught, your belief is that my Lord didn't mean this literally. But, I assure you... he absolutely meant it literally. How do we know? Well, I am to ask you: at what point, if any, did Christ EVER pray publicly... even in front of his disciples? Where is such recorded? Again, I don't want you to think I am trying to mislead you, so let's take a look at all of the recorded accounts where he prayed and do so from the NWT:

    "Eventually, having sent the crowds away, he went up into the mountain by himself to pray. Though it became late, he was there alone." Matthew 14:23

    "Then [Jesus] came with them to the spot called Geth·sem´a·ne, and he said to the disciples: “Sit down here while I go over there and pray.” And taking along Peter and the two sons of Zeb´e·dee, he started to be grieved and to be sorely troubled. Then he said to them: “My soul is deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me.” And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.” Matthew 26:36-39

    "Again, for the second time, he went off and prayed, saying: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.” And he came again and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. So leaving them, he again went off and prayed for the third time, saying once more the same word." Matthew 26:42-44

    "And, without delay, he compelled his disciples to board the boat and go on ahead to the opposite shore toward Beth·sa´i·da, while he himself dismissed the crowd. But after saying good-bye to them he went off into a mountain to pray." Mark 6:45, 46

    "In the progress of these days he went out into the mountain to pray, and he continued the whole night in prayer to God. But when it became day he called his disciples to him and chose from among them twelve, whom he also named apostles:..."Luke 6:12

    "In actual fact, about eight days after these words, he took Peter and John and James along and climbed up into the mountain to pray. And as he was praying the appearance of his face became different and his apparel became glitteringly white.Also, look! two men were conversing with him, who were Moses and E·li´jah. These appeared with glory and began talking about his departure that he was destined to fulfill at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those with him were weighed down with sleep; but when they got fully awake they saw his glory and the two men standing with him." Luke 9:28-32

    "On going out he went as customarily to the Mount of Olives; and the disciples also followed him. Having come to the place he said to them: “Carry on prayer, that YOU do not enter into temptation.”And he himself drew away from them about a stone’s throw, and bent his knees and began to pray..." Luke 22:29-41

    If this is the manner in which Christ prayed, dear Debator, if he SAID, "You do NOT be like them..." but, rather, "When YOU pray, GO INTO YOUR PRIVATE ROOM..." and we are to follow in HIS footsteps... how can we do different, yet say that we belong to and are following HIM? Even Peter followed this admonition:

    "The next day as they were pursuing their journey and were approaching the city, Peter went up to the housetop about the sixth hour to pray." Acts 10:9

    Now, my Lord has said that at this point, your heart will have told you that I am "just arguing semantics." In response to that, he has directed me to direct YOU... to his words recorded at Luke 6:46, which ask:

    “Why, then, do YOU call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?"

    The WTBTS and its followers, Jehovah's Witnesses, PRIDE themselves on "doing just so." In these things, however, they are not only NOT doing just so... but they are HYPOCRTICALLY pointing their fingers at others: others who are also out there on those streets, others who also pray publicly, other who also do not do the things Christ said and says. Rather, these, having designated PAUL as their "leader" and so follow HIS teachings OVER Christ's. Perhaps, then, they should call on Paul for their salvation... at the last day.

    We will move on the other questions raised at YOUR convenience. In the meantime...

    I bid you peace, dear Debator... and ears to hear the TRUTH of these things that I have been privileged to share with you... if you so wish them.

    YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,


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