Debator said:
in every case "epi" means "over", eg., Luke 1:33; Acts7:18.
My reply: Acts 7:18???
18 Then another king, who knew nothing about Joseph, became ruler of Egypt. ?????
Some Question(s) for Debator...
by AGuest 42 Replies latest jw experiences
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PSacramento
Hmmm, Shelby- 1, Debator-0
Sorry dude.
Fact is Jesus admonished those that prayed in public and put on a show about it, making themsleves to be more than they are.
Fact is Judas WAS at and PARTOOK of the last supper.
Fact is Jesus said the unless we "eat of his fleah and drink of his blood", we will not enter the kingdoem of Heaven.
To Paul, every meal was a meal to give thanks, to remember Jesus sacrifice and "eat of his fleash and drink of his blood".
The only division of people that Jesus ever spoke of directly were the sheeps and gaots in Matthew.
The New Convenant superseedes and makes obsolete the OLD one if you are a Christian.
And while Jesus IS THE messenger of God, more correctly, THE WORD OF GOD, he is NOT an angelic being, his is begotten of God, not created like the angels.
Jesus is, by nature, God, for he can be nothing else other than what he was beggoten from.
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debator
Hi Psacramento
None of those are facts!
Jesus himself prayed in public so he was clearly clarifying that the motivation was the issue.
Throughout the centuries Judas presence at the last supper has been debated.
John 6 is not refering to the last supper but Jesus is talking about his death and sacrifice for us. Only people that ignore the context of Jesus's words and explanation believe this silliness. When talking at the last supper itself Jesus calls it a rememberance only. You are trying to link two separate accounts that are refering to the same event but not each other.
Jesus talked about "other sheep" as well.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.So christians rule over Jews on earth? So according to you Jews get earth and Christians get heaven?
Angel simply means "messenger" in hebrew the same word covers both. If Jesus is a messenger he is an angel. God's spirit sons are only called Angels as a job title they are more correctly spirit beings Jesus became more thean them by being the only one to "become flesh"
God's nature is spirit, Jesus's nature is spirit, Angels nature is spirit.
John 4:23-24
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."As Jesus himself says.
John 17:1-3 (New International Version)
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, .....that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. Your so-called facts are only facts for those that ignore what the Bible actually says and listen to the doctrines of men.
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isaacaustin
Debator said:
John 10:16
I have othersheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.So christians rule over Jews on earth? Jews get earth Christians get heaven?
My reply: Circular reasoning by you. You are inserting your unproven statement that there are two classes of Christians- one who rule over the other and are in a different location than the other. Compare this account;
Eph 2:
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.
What makes more sense- that Jesus was telling his Jewish followers that in 2000 years (after they are all dead) another class of Christians with a different hope than them would appear on the scene? And he never mentioned this group again. Or that Jesus was preparing the Jews for entry of the gentiles into the fold (which happened soon thereafter)?
You are really blinded Debator and will grasp at whatever straws you can to uphold empty WT doctrine. You have been knocked down on every single point.
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debator
Hi Isaac
epi is translated "over" lots of times.
- Ac 7:18 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
- until THERE AROSE ANOTHER KING OVER EGYPT WHO KNEW NOTHING ABOUT JOSEPH.
rev 9:11 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
- They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.
- Re 17:18 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
- "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth ."
especially when the reigning over something is involved
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PSacramento
Hi Psacramento
Hello :)
None of those are facts!
If direct quotes are not facts then nothing in the bible is a fact, so much for the bible then.
Jesus himself prayed in public so he was clearly clarifying that the motivation was the issue.
I don't recall Jesus praying in public, giving thanks yes, but he prayed in private, as he did in the garden for example.
Throughout the centuries Judas presence at the last supper has been debated.
Not really, not if you take the bible for what IT SAYS.
John 6 is not refering to the last supper but Jesus is talking about his death and sacrifice for us. Only people that ignore the context of Jesus's words and explanation believe this silliness. When talking at the last supper itself Jesus calls it a rememberance only. You are trying to link two separate accounts that are refering to the same event but not each other.
In your interpretation, but not in what Jesus actually says. As you know the GOJ doesn't have a "last supper" per say, so it seems that the writer decided to make note of this at another stage, this was just Johns way of writing.
Jesus talked about "other sheep" as well.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.So christians rule over Jews on earth? So according to you Jews get earth and Christians get heaven?
Where did I say that?
Angel simply means "messenger" in hebrew the same word covers both. If Jesus is a messenger he is an angel. God's spirit sons are only called Angels as a job title they are more correctly spirit beings Jesus became more thean them by being the only one to "become flesh"
God's nature is spirit, Jesus's nature is spirit, Angels nature is spirit.
So angels are the same as God?
God created angels, he begot Jesus, that is very clear in John and Jesus's uniqueness is clear in Colosians, Phlipians and Hebrews.
John 4:23-24
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."As Jesus himself says.
John 17:1-3 (New International Version)
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, .....that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Your so-called facts are only facts for those that ignore what the Bible actually says and listen to the doctrines of men.
My so-called facts are taken directly from the Bible. It is an interesting thing that you quoted John 17, perhaps you need to read it ALL.
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isaacaustin
Debator, you missed my point...I said over or upon...the WT adds its twist that the Rev 5 describes ruling over the earth from heaven...Even if we accept the word over, that does not substantiate that rule is from heaven by one class over an earthly class. The rule can just as easily be on the earth over the inhabited earth.
Someone did a thread I can not remember who, where the grammatical construction is such where the ruling is from the same location at the subjects.
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PSacramento
17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 “I have revealed you a to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify b them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
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isaacaustin
Judas present at the last supper is obvious. Jesus said it point blank in Luke 22.
15 And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. 21 “But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.
