Taliban prisoners in Cuba

by Abaddon 62 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  jelly

  Hello just a quick post here to make a few points:

  Americans are interested in justice not vengeance. If we were interested in vengeance we would have left the Al Qeada members to die in Afghanistan or just simply nuked the county; America did neither.

  As far as international law honestly Americans do not care much about international law, sorry to inform you. Many Americans see international law as an attempt of other countries to impede on our sovereignty; basically other countries trying to dictate to us how we should conduct our business. The prisoners will not be beaten or starved or hooked up to batteries not because we are conforming to international law but because we are Americans. Do you really think that the prisoners are going to be subjected to violence of their life or person by the Americans? Or do you think that maybe Bush is working with an unprecedented situation and is being very careful with what he does and does not declare someone looking at the legal consequences in the long term? For example look at John Walker and how long it took for them to charge him with a crime. Why do you think Bush took so long? I think it was because the government is being very careful to examine all the consequences of their actions. I don’t know if you can really understand this living in a different county but the American legal system can tend to run amuck so basically I see all these delays in declaring a status as just a way to buy time until the government figures out what the best way to deal with these people is.

  Personally I think Bush should declare them POW’s but I also am not losing any sleep over the fact he did not.

  Jelly

  P.S. To make it easy for all you people to cut and paste the one comment from my post you will respond to I will but it down here for you all:

  As far as international law honestly Americans do not care much about international law, sorry to inform you. Many Americans see international law as an attempt of other countries to impede on our sovereignty; basically other countries trying to dictate to us how we should conduct our business
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Seeker, you said,

  Of course I have evidence! Secret military trials are evidence of the eroding of rights for Americans that I was talking about. We have a right to view trials, to make sure our government never becomes tyrannical (it's why this country was founded, remember?).

  How is it that "secret military trials" are eroding the rights of Americans? What Americans are being tried in "secret military trials"? Show me in the constitution your right to view the trials of military prisoners who are not U.S. citizens. Show me how these battlefield detainees are having their rights violated. The Geneva Convention spells out the treatment of Battle Field Detainees, have you even read the document? Somehow I doubt it. Did you know that the Northern Allicance or the US would have been within their rights according to the Geneva Convention to summarily try and execute ON THE SPOT, those detainees involved in the riots at Mizar e Sharif? Before you bitch and moan some more about the violation of human rights, find out first what those rights are. These guys are fed, clothed, housed, given free exercise of their religion within the confines of reasonable safety precautions. So what rights are exactly being violated? They are not US Citizens so the Constitution doesn't apply to them. And were they US Citizens they would still be Battle Field detainees and the US would be justified in treating them in just this manner. Terrorism isn't just a criminal law matter, it's a matter of MILITARY Law as well.
  Seeker, you said,

  What is classified? Whatever the government says is classified.

  .
  Classical silly and uneducated statement. Yes as the proponent and producer of classified documents the Government is INDEED the agency to determine what is and is not classified. Seeker, are you not the one who determines what a Personal Question is? So too the Government decides what is classified. Silly silly liberal.
• 

  cellomould

  Very nice Abaddon,

  Hopefully people are actually reading what you are saying rather than simply reacting to it emotionally.

  'But I don't like Arab jihad extremists!' is the gist of the counter-argument. I am not saying I like them either. That's not the point.

  Well, my last two cents before I retire:

  'An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.'

  What is really being done now to actively prevent further acts of terror from being commited in the US? Let me tell you, the answer isn't somewhere in Afghanistan. (Has everyone forgotten Timothy McVeigh already?)

  In this case the 'cure' involves throwing money at the victims' families and vowing to scalp the 'cowardly' murderers. Do you know why terrorists don't fight fairly? Because they cannot fight fairly, plain and simple.

  Terrorists aren't born terrorists, neither do they grow on trees in the deserts of the Middle East. (sorry for the oxymoron ) Osama bin Laden, for example, is a product of the US system of foreign affairs.

  Has everyone forgotten that minor...actually, MAJOR detail? The US fed him, clothed him, gave him weapons, gave him a mission, and then....what happened?

  Well, perhaps we'll never know the whole truth. That's information that we're not supposed to know, after all. But people tend to switch sides because they are disillusioned. (i.e. this discussion board)

  Don't you want to know what he's really fighting for? He's got millions of dollars and with a nice shave, well, he could look as handsome and honest as myself, perhaps. He stubbornly refuses, however, choosing a guerilla lifestyle over a lifestyle akin to rich corporate America.

  Why? What could possibly be so ugly about the United States and its mentality? (Even those crazy and fanatical JWs smell a rat )

  The courageous thing to do is to look into the mirror.

  "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
• 

  dirty larry

  I reckon Yanks are just about the most fearsome nation on the planet.
  Im talkin general like,They think theyre so bloody holy,and have to save the world for "freedom" "democracy" and all them other bullshit slogans.
  Problem with yanks is they believe their own bullshit absolutely.
  Hey everyone!
  Watch all the bloody yanks pile on rippin my guts out now for sayin this.
  Christ, Your so bloody blind I cant believe it.
  I never bin to America. Too many americans.
  (Some of the yanks on here I like personaly)
  This is not a troll post. Its my real opinion.
  Okay if I express it?
• 

  cellomould

  Feel free dirty larry,

  It's your board you can complain if you want to.

  One of my Chinese colleagues is a real source of insight about the flaws of the American culture. She is quite perceptive, considering she's only been here about 3 years.

  Maybe it's because China has many flaws, too? Care to complain about China? he he he
  

  cellomould

  "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
• 

  dirty larry

  I dont comment on things I dont know about. Never bin to China, and we dont get many chinese movies over here so...nah, Chinese, no comment.
  See? Im not allbad.
• 

  Abaddon

  Yerusalyim: POW's should be kept in the same conditions as soldiers of the side holding them in captivity are kept in when they are. This is in the Geneva Convention, unless Amnesty International are wrong and you are right.

  You also seem ignorant of the part of the convention that says prisoners who status as POW's is in dispute should be treated as POW's until a suitable tribunal rules on their status.

  As you start making comments about 'haven't read an informed opinion yet', and immediately make statements which show you to be the uninformed one, I suggest you button it until YOU have informed opinions, as it makes you look silly; sorry to be blunt, but you reap, you sow, it's fair. If you don't want to be talked to like that, don't talk like that.

  Oh, for those who are interested, the prisoners in Cuba are being kept in 6' x 8' wire cages, open to the elements. The TV pictures I saw seemed to show about five prisoners in each cage. Yeah, that's REALLY the same conditions as US Millitary personnel receive in Millitary Prisons.

  Cellomould makes some excellent points regarding the background story, but it's not one many Americans seem interested in... and Cello, I don't think people are thinking, they are being emotional.

  jelly; the point you bring out about America not respecting International law is not new to this thread. Read my previous post and answer this question regarding breaking International Law;

  And as long as the most powerful country in the world does that, how can it point the fingre at those that do the same? How can the world progress politically unless it is recognised that the arguement of greater good is a moral minfield that should not be crossed?

  And still, the questions that have been raised by those who object to the prisoners being kept in Cuba and not defined as POW's are unanwsered in the flurry of lynch-mob opinions and justification...

  If you guys have such a strong case for being right, why don't you make it?

  Might is not right, and the USA HAS to learn this for World politics to develop, and the USA HAS to learn it shares the same fucking planet as the rest of us, and can share the same International Laws, and pretending POW's are not POW's or that CO2 is not a pollutant only makes them look silly...

  I refer all to my previous comments about me not attacking peoples' worth or integrity for holding opinions I think suck. I disagree with you, I don't think you are bad people because I disagree with you.

  Let's keep this a discussion and stop it developing into a flame war...

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Sweet,

  You said,
  

  Yerusalyim: POW's should be kept in the same conditions as soldiers of the side holding them in captivity are kept in when they are. This is in the Geneva Convention, unless Amnesty International are wrong and you are right.

  Well, we've already established that by the Geneva Convention these guys are NOT POW's, they don't fit the requirements. Secondly, had these kids behaved while they were POW's instead of starting a riot then perhaps they would be afforded better living conditions. (By the way, I've lived as those soldiers are, it ain't much better than the Terrorists are staying in).

  Are you not concerned about the lives of the soldiers guarding these guys? You are mistaken, It's ONE prisoner per cell. Check your facts, inform yourself and lose your liberal bent.
• 

  Seeker

  Yerusalyim,

  Classical silly and uneducated statement. Yes as the proponent and producer of classified documents the Government is INDEED the agency to determine what is and is not classified. Seeker, are you not the one who determines what a Personal Question is? So too the Government decides what is classified. Silly silly liberal.

  I am not a liberal. When it comes to constitutional law, I am an extreme conservative.

  When the government gets to say what is or is not classified, and they then gut the Freedom of Information Act to such a degree that in the future no presidential papers will ever be made public as long as that president doesn't want them made public, you have a situation where you have a government with power but no accountability.

  Are Bush and Ashcroft going to be engaged in illegal behavior at these secret trials? We won't know, and that's why my rights (6th Amendment of the Constitution, as I already linked in this thread for those who were paying attention) are being violated. I am left to merely "trust" that my government will do the right thing without any way of verifying it. This is diametrically opposed to the wishes of the founding fathers who said that no government should be trusted, but each should be checked by the people and replaced when need be. They replaced a government back in the 1700s when it grew tyrannical. People today are too soft to have that kind of guts. Instead they sit around, fat and happy, applauding while their own government violates the constitution and sets themselves up for a growing tyranny without accountability.

  To repeat, those of you focusing on the constitutional rights of the prisioners, I'm not talking about their rights. I'm talking about your rights as a U.S. citizen, and my rights. The Sixth Amendment of the U.S. Consitution was put in place to head off tyranny. The courts have held that this amendment should be upheld except under the most dire of circumstances. Since we have already experienced a trial on U.S. soil of terrorist cells who attacked the WTC, the precedent has already been set that such trials could occur again without loss of state secrets or endangerment to U.S. citizens.

  Anyone who would call this constitutional stance "liberal" is just not paying attention. Just because you disagree with me is no excuse to grab a lazy label. Think about what I am saying. I am arguing that we keep the status quo, not make some radical change. That is the very definition of conservative thought. In this issue, I am in complete agreement with William Safire, that noted "liberal"...
• 

  Abaddon

  Yerusalyim;

  "we've already established that by the Geneva Convention these guys are NOT POW's, they don't fit the requirements"

  "We've" as in the US, not as in a "suitable tribunal", which is what should decide the status of prisoners whose POW status is in dispute, according to the Geneva Convention, as I mentioned in the very same post you were responding to.

  You've already made accusations about those disagreeing with you being uninformed once, and were proven to be wrong when you made them.
  Now you don't even bother to read the posts, let alone address the other issues raised.

  I am still waiting for someone in favour of the prisoners being held to address the issues raised in this thread arguing that this is unwise.

  Please could someone do that? Rather than ignoring previously made posts or making unfounded accusations?

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...