Reports of Jesus' (death or resurrection) may have been later?

by Terry 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry

    Consider this possibility. What if Jesus' contemporaries, hanger's on, entourage, posse, disciples and apostles never gave a single thought at all

    to his having been raised from the dead? Now hold on.....don't get ahead of me......

    What if the idea that Jesus overcame death did not get injected into the Jesus Story until much later?

    At the point where this happened the entire life of Jesus would instantly require being reframed in context and meaning.

    A series of Q&A dialogues between hearers and tellers would work out the refinements.

    The story would then take on a supernatural impetus beyond the ordinary idea of who Messiah had to be.

    This is when the deity question would most likely arise.

    Think of Elvis, for a moment.

    We have photographs of him dead on the toilet and on the slab in the morgue. But, still----there have been Elvis "sightings" beyond the grave which immediately caused radical fans of his to leap to the conclusion Elvis faked his own death. The "logic" could be fashioned according to conspiracy theory style "reasoning."

    No photographs of dead Jesus exist, I might remind you.

    My point?

    If we do away with the idea that the Jesus story was the same from start to finish we may be missing the point historically and radically.

    I point to the investigative "journalist" Papias who interviewed all the still-living followers of Jesus. If you read the outrageous exaggerations those people were making you can see the reality factor had been distorted almost beyond reckoning. Papias was doing his best to sort things out and yet later church fathers discarded his writings as poppycock easily.

    Something is fishy.

    Many changes were wrought over time. That is for certain. What came when is a matter of speculation.

  • Soldier77


    What intrigues me is that before the printing press, the scrolls were handwritten and copied hundred? thousands? of times. Every single time I reflect on this fact, I immediately recall the game in school we used to play where we would stand in a big circle, the teacher would whisper a sentence in the ear of the first student and it would be passed ear to ear all around the circle. How many times did it come back to the teacher correctly? Not once.

    So in response to your thought provoking post, I think that is really something to think about. Of course, I can see that opening Pandora's Box if proven true.

    Enjoyable post Terry.

  • cyberjesus

    I saw Jesus the other day... in the mirror!

  • read good books
    read good books

    What about the eye witnesses that saw him after his death, felt his wound etc. The visions John had in Revelations of him in heaven?

    I think either you buy the whole enchilada or you don't, you can't break it apart like that.

  • not a captive
    not a captive


    You make a good point. Even I can't waffle around on that one. There are a few points that stick pretty hard if you try to accommodate ideas that are easier for everyone to accept. I think the resurrection is one.

    I am convinced that God is really around.

    I do think about the idea of a story's being embellished--but I am going to let this stay this way for now. I can't see my way past it. I think that God could have and would have sent an emmissary, that would be Jesus. The raising from the dead wouldn't be much for him to do, if he had managed everything else. And it is the thing that mostly paralyzes our most selfless action--we ask--"What if I die trying?" I figure that Jesus not lying there and rotting was a comfort to his friends (none to brave w/o a sword) to think that God might give a bonus to those robbed of any fair time on earth.

    Maybe that's how it was--a resurrection.

    I think of that mainly for people that had only the worst of life, actually. My life wasn't the worst at all. Although I regret so much about my Witness years.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    Jehovah's Witnesses believe everything in the Bible is true and accurate. What more trustworthy a source could be found than that?

  • JWdaughter

    I am learning more about Islam since living here and it is kind of interesting that you are stating what Islam does: Jesus didn't die on the cross. There is a sura in the Quran that reads:

    "That they (the wrong-doers) said (in boast), 'We killed the Christ Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah';- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them [or it appeared so unto them], and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise." 4:157

    Different scholars interpret it different ways, but ultimately leads to the idea that he did not die on the cross. Some say he was raised from the cross to heaven before he died, some think he looked dead, wasn't, and died later. Different theories.They do still think he was raised and will return in glory. So, go figure!

  • Terry

    What about the eye witnesses that saw him after his death, felt his wound etc. The visions John had in Revelations of him in heaven?

    Think of it this way: When you read in the bible what "eye-witnesses" said you (yourself) aren't talking to them or listening to them. You are reading what SOMEBODY ELSE said or wrote perhaps/perhaps not accurately.

    You depend on the written word.

    The written word is copied.

    The source of the copy was a copy.

    The source of that copied copy was itself a copy.

    And so on and so on for over a hundred years.

    Where does this leave the "actual" story?

    We CAN'T and DON'T have any way of knowing because NOTHING ORIGINAL remains.



    Everything you and I have ever heard or read is so far removed from provable, testable, verifiable or original it may as well be fiction.

    How does a person place their entire life on such a basis? You have to want it to be true and then hope you are right.

    That isn't faith so much as it is credulity.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    I assume you are reading "Jesus for the Non-Religous" by John Shelby Spong - and chapter 10 (pages 107 to 115) in particular.

    Or maybe pages 143ff of "Jesus: A Revolutionary" by John Dominic Crossan.


  • Quentin

    I am reading the "Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty....Paul's letters were the frist written documentation. The Gospels came after. Paul held to a "spirtual Jesus", yet he made no reference to a passion or death/resurection of Jesus as the Gospels portrayed. His letters and said Gosples do not come togather as a witness. Odd.....takes a lot of hoop jumping and jamming togather of the two, as well as over looking flaws to make them cohesive...

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