Thanks, MF.
I'm trying to build up a strong case for the reason why I made my choices for that inevitable moment when my daughter begins questioning.
They may claim to have 'the truth' but I have facts to back up my choice not to believe them.
Library Visit # 2: 607 BCE vs. 587 BCE - With Pictures!
by mentallyfree31 113 Replies latest watchtower bible
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BurnTheShips
Library Visit # 2: 607 BCE vs. 587 BCE - With Pictures!
JW lurker: "How do I know those pictures aren't photoshopped?"
BTS (ducks and runs)
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stillajwexelder
Excellent - bookmarked - Farkels irreverent look where he jumps between lunar -solar- etc etc is just brilliant too
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PSacramento
Nice and simple, thanks Mentallyfree :)
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garyneal
JW lurker: "How do I know those pictures aren't photoshopped?"
Lurker then should not take mentallyfree's post as fact and go to the library and look up these sources for themselves.
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sd-7
I checked my mom's old World Book Encyclopedia--it was written in 1982--and it also show 587 as the date. What might be helpful to those who are really troubled over this issue would be to check the sources used by the encyclopedia itself. If anyone can find those books and take pictures of THEM, that might help even more.
Interestingly, I was reading a book by the great American spokesman Thomas Paine. Here is a man who believes the solar system has only six planets, yet even he recognizes Jerusalem was destroyed around 587 (he says 588, actually, probably he hasn't heard of the zero year, since he hasn't met Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto yet). When I read that, I felt really embarrassed--talk about living in the Stone Age when it comes to information! I can't believe I never bothered to think on this issue from this angle before.
Great thread, if I haven't said so before.
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thetrueone
The point that the WTS rests itself on regarding the date of beginning of captivity is done by subtracting
70 years from the release of the Israelites from Babylon .
You know those prophetic scribes never bullshitted about nothing particularly about their glorious god.
There are many facts to weigh in on when the Israelites were first overtaken and brought into captivity,
chronological dating of the kings of Babylon and their specific reign brings exacting confidence on when this
all occurred. The actual calculation coming up to 1914 has no biblical background to hold itself in support,
it was more of a calculation self devised in my opinion to bring more relevance to the WTS. literature.
Stuff that makes for great front cover headlines for a magazine.
Some people believed in it , just like some people today believe that Benny Hinn has healing powers through god's holy spirit.
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diamondiiz
WTS has no proof for 607 so they try to discredit the proof that there is not enough evidence found to support 586/7 date. The fact is there is more proof to support Neo Babylonian reigns with proper years than for 539BC as the date of Cyrus capturing babylon. Carl Olof Jonnson's Gentile Times Reconsidered is an excellent book with tons of material showing why 607 fails the history test. One of the biggest facts proving beyond a doubt are the artifacts which include the lunar eclipses and the year of the king's rule since the detailed description of the lunar eclipses can not have taken place 20 years earlier. There are many many of these artifacts from various years and various lunar eclipses from different Neo Babylonian kings in power which could not have been all changed by Persians nor a conspiracy to hide the 20 years that wts imagines.
WTS' pillar has no foundtion since 607 is false, 1914 means nothing, and thus FDS weren't chosen in 1919 thus WTS is a fraud.
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alice.in.wonderland
I initiated an investigation into this subject here:
Bible or secular chronology for Jerusalem's destruction: which are you more inclined to believe?
Not to undermine your trips to the library but archeological discoveries displayed in museums are the resources that modern historical reference books depend on.
http://www.niasnet.org/iran-history/artifacts-historical-places-of-iran/cyruscylinder/
The charter of Cyrus the Great, a baked-clay cylinder, was discovered in 1878 in excavation of the site of Babylon by Assyrian archaeologist, Hormuz Rassam. Inscribed in Akkadian cuneiform containing a detailed account by Cyrus the Great, which described his conquest of Babylon in 539 BCE, and his human treatment of his conquered subjects. Length of this cylinder is 22.86 Centimetre, and it is now kept in the British Museum; it is no exaggeration to say that it is one of the most precious historical records of the world. Cyrus’ cylinder, resonate for Iranians at a very profound level, which has become part of Iran’s cultural and national identity.The document also confirms many of the details recorded in Ezra 1:2-4, in which Cyrus the Great decreed that the Israelites could return to Judea from captivity to rebuild the temple in 537 BCE.
Before the discovery of this artifact, many sceptic Western historians believed that the idea of a Zoroastrian emperor like Cyrus the Great, simply allowing a conquered people like the Jews to return to their homeland and rebuild their temple, (as described in detail in Ezra 1:2-4), simply was not credible and was propagated by Persians. Nevertheless, the Cyrus Cylinder as well as Biblical statements depict the exact scenario, verifying in detail corresponds with each other. The biblical texts were made by both Isaiah and Jeremiah regarding this equally great king.
Most historians base their date for the destruction of Jerusalem on an independent line of secular evidence, without including the Biblically-foretold seventy-year period of servitude to Babylon for Judah:
"The word that occurred to Jeremiah . . . concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years."—Jeremiah 25:1a, 2, 11.
Eighteen years after this prophecy occurred to Jeremiah, the priest and copyist Ezra describes the events that followed the destruction of Jerusalem, in the nineteenth year (or eighteenth regnal year) of Nebuchadnezzar:
"Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; to fulfill the Lord's word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its Sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."—2 Chronicles 36:20, 21.
Seventy years of captivity in Babylon, counting backwards from the Jew's release in 537 (this date according to the best astronomical tables available, is calculated to be October 5 (Julian) or September 29 (Gregorian) 537 B.C.E.) would pinpoint Jerusalem's destruction at 607 BCE.
Relation to Daniel’s Prophecies: At least twice in this prophecy concerning the time of the end, Jesus referred to the contents of the book of the prophet Daniel. (Compare Mt 24:15, 21 with Da 11:31; 12:1.) In the book of Daniel we find a picture drawn of the domination of the earth by the Gentile powers during their “appointed times.” The second chapter of Daniel contains the prophetic vision (received by King Nebuchadnezzar) of the great image that Daniel by inspiration showed to represent the march of Gentile world powers, ending with their destruction by the Kingdom set up by “the God of heaven,” which Kingdom then rules earth wide. (Da 2:31-45) It is of note that the image begins with the Babylonian Empire, the first world power to ‘trample Jerusalem’ by overthrowing the Davidic dynasty and leaving “God’s throne” in Jerusalem vacant. This also confirms that the start of “the appointed times of the nations” in the year of Jerusalem’s destruction, 607 B.C.E.
Dream vision of tree in Daniel chapter 4: Again in the book of Daniel we find a close parallel to Jesus’ use of the word “times” with regard to “the nations,” or Gentile powers. And again it is Nebuchadnezzar, the dethroner of David’s descendant Zedekiah, who was given another vision interpreted by Daniel as relating to divinely appointed kingship. The symbolic vision was of an immense tree; an angel from heaven commanded that it be chopped down. Its stump was then banded with iron and copper and had to stay that way among the grass of the field until “seven times” passed over it.
Seven Symbolic Times: Concerning the word “times” as used in Daniel’s prophecy, lexicographers show it here to mean a period of “years.” (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Brown, Driver, and Briggs, 1980, p. 1105)
The duration of a "time" is used to indicate 360 days, inasmuch as three and a half times are shown to equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days” at Revelation 12:6, 14.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:6
But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. Revelation 12:14 (Compare also Re 11:2, 3.)
“Seven times,” according to this count, would equal 2,520 days.
That a specific number of days may be used in the Bible record to represent prophetically an equivalent number of years can be seen by reading the accounts at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6.
"After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. Numbers 14:34
Only by applying the formula there expressed of “a day for a year” to the “seven times” of this prophecy can the vision of Daniel chapter 4 have significant fulfillment beyond the day of now extinct Nebuchadnezzar, as the evidence thus far presented gives reason to expect. They therefore represent 2,520 years.
Now, since the Common Era did not begin with the year zero but began with 1 C.E., and the calendar for the years before the Common Era did not count back from a zero year but began with 1 B.C.E., the figure used for the year in any date is in reality an ordinal number. That is, 1990 C.E. really represents 1989 full years since the beginning of the Common Era, and the date July 1, 1990, represents 1,989 years plus a half year since the beginning of the Common Era. The same principle applies to B.C.E. dates. So to figure how many years elapsed between October 1, 607 B.C.E., and October 1, 1914 C.E., add 606 years (plus the last three months of the previous year) to 1,913 (plus the first nine months of the next year), and the result is 2,519 (plus 12 months), or 2,520 years. Or if you want to figure what date would be 2,520 years after October 1, 607 B.C.E., remember that 607 is an ordinal number—it really represents 606 full years—and since we are counting, not from December 31, 607 B.C.E., but from October 1, 607 B.C.E., we must add to 606 the three months at the end of 607 B.C.E. Now subtract 606 1/4 from 2,520 years. The remainder is 1,913 3/4. That means that 2,520 years from October 1, 607 B.C.E., takes us 1,913 3/4 years into the Common Era—1,913 full years brings us to the beginning of 1914 C.E., and three fourths of a year in addition brings us to October 1, 1914 C.E. —si pp. 281-282 pars. 21-26 Study Number 2—Time and the Holy Scriptures
“It was in B.C. 606, that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606, will end in A.D. 1914.” —The Three Worlds, published in 1877, page 83.
And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. you are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that you are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. Matthew 24:4-8
The year 1914 marked the beginning of World War I. The assassination of this heir to the Austrian throne (Archduke Franz Ferdinand) in June of 1914 sparked the beginning of World War I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity
According to the Babylonian Chronicles, Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon lay siege to Jerusalem in 599 BC.
The Babylonian captivity, or Babylonian exile, was the period in Jewish history from the deportation and exile of Jews of the ancient Kingdom of Judah to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar II starting with the first deportation in 597 BC of the royal court and other prominent citizens and craftsmen, along with a sizable portion of the Jewish population of Judah, numbering about 10,000, and continuing even after the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple in 587 BCE.
These dates conflict with Bible chronology. This independent line of “secular” evidence as historians tend to think is not secular history. I wouldn't accept everything written in the Babylonian Chronicles as authoritative as their government and military was sadistic and their religion consisted of every form of the occult. An exception: the Babylonian astronomical tables of which certain dates were derived was based on astronomy, not just astrology.Using character assessment as a guide for trustworthiness: Offering human sacrifices was a very ancient custom practiced by the Babylonians and the Assyrians unlike the declaration of human rights issued by the emperor Cyrus the Great.
Interestingly enough one user stated:
“You are aware that Satan is very powerful and can manipulate people into writing/printing whatever he wants. He evidently misled all the authors of the cited referenced materials.”
Individuals that don't believe in Satan can dismiss this entire discussion, continue studying the book of ophthalmology to ascertain the existence of invisible beings and read no further. To those any theists reading that take wicked spirit forces into consideration:Following the accurate timekeeping of God as recorded in his Word, the desolation of Judah ran from 607 to 537 B.C.E. There's good reason to avoid making the mistake of the chronologers who ignore the prophecy of the seventy years’ desolation and date Jerusalem’s destruction as occurring in 587 B.C.E. accepting the unreliable recordings of certain pagan historians rather than the infallible Word of God.—2 Chron. 36:19-23.
While world history outside the original Bible canon is necessary to arrive at conclusions, discretion and objectivity should be used before arriving at foregone conclusions.
The fulfillment of the 1914 prophecy speaks volumes about the authenticity of Russel's public statement in (the Three Worlds, published in 1877). Opponents of Jehovah's Witnesses tend to ignore the significance of this for no good reason. It's a bit of a gambit to bank on something catastrophic occurring in 1914 if the facts indicate otherwise.
And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” Genesis 3:14-15
When examining Babylonian history keep in mind:
Insight on the Scriptures-1 pp. 237-238 Babylon
Religion. Babylon was a most religious place. Evidence from excavations and from ancient texts points to the existence of more than 50 temples. The principal god of the imperial city was Marduk, called Merodach in the Bible. It has been suggested that Nimrod was deified as Marduk, but the opinions of scholars as to identifications of gods with specific humans vary. Triads of deities were also prominent in the Babylonian religion. One of these, made up of two gods and a goddess, was Sin (the moon-god), Shamash (the sun-god), and Ishtar; these were said to be the rulers of the zodiac. And still another triad was composed of the devils Labartu, Labasu, and Akhkhazu. Idolatry was everywhere in evidence. Babylon was indeed “a land of graven images,” filthy “dungy idols.”—Jer 50:1, 2, 38.
The Babylonians believed in the immortality of the human soul.—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by M. Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 556.The Babylonians developed astrology in an effort to discover man’s future in the stars. (See ASTROLOGERS.) Magic, sorcery, and astrology played a prominent part in their religion. (Isa 47:12, 13; Da 2:27; 4:7) Many heavenly bodies, for example, planets, were named after Babylonian gods. Divination continued to be a basic component of Babylonian religion in the days of Nebuchadnezzar, who used it to reach decisions.—Eze 21:20-22.
Israel’s Age-Old Enemy. The Bible makes many references to Babylon, beginning with the Genesis account of the original city of Babel. (Ge 10:10; 11:1-9) Included in the spoil taken by Achan from Jericho was “an official garment from Shinar.” (Jos 7:21) After the fall of the northern kingdom of Israel in 740 B.C.E., people from Babylon and other areas were brought in to replace the captive Israelites. (2Ki 17:24, 30) Hezekiah made the mistake of showing messengers from Babylon the treasures of his house; these same treasures as well as some of Hezekiah’s “sons” were later taken to Babylon. (2Ki 20:12-18; 24:12; 25:6, 7) King Manasseh (716-662 B.C.E.) was also taken captive to Babylon, but because he humbled himself, Jehovah restored him to his throne. (2Ch 33:11) King Nebuchadnezzar took the precious utensils of Jehovah’s house to Babylon, along with thousands of captives.—2Ki 24:1–25:30; 2Ch 36:6-20.
You can either take sides with history potentially Satanically influenced, or take sides with chronology that harmoniously synchronizes with the grand theme of the Bible.
Rbi8 p. 8 Introduction
MARGINAL REFERENCES: There are more than 125,000 marginal (cross) references in this edition. These citations demonstrate that there is at least a second witness to almost every Biblical matter. A careful comparison of the marginal references and an examination of the accompanying footnotes will reveal the interlocking harmony of the 66 Bible books, proving that they comprise one book, inspired by God.
As free moral agents God gives us choices so we're not locked into an undesirable course. -
diamondiiz
AIW - why quote crap! WTS used archaeology to support 539BC and disagrees with the same facts that prove 586/7BC for destruction of Jerusalem. Get your head out of your ass! As I said before, all wts can do is try to discredit the facts that are out there proving 586/7. They cannot prove 607 so they try to discredit the reality and history. When Nelson Barbour came up with 606 others seeking dates used 604 and some used 587 if I remember correctly. Name us the Neo Babylonian kings and their years in power and count backwards from 539. You won't find 607 to match. It appears that you don't want the truth but want to believe what you think is a truth even thought it's pure fiction. AIW, you can use this thread for a reference
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these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Doesn't need to mean strictly Israel!
