Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel 77 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Black Sheep

  WT 15 July, 1960

  Staying Awake with the “Faithful and Discreet Slave”

  2 How is this divine will to be made known and brought to the attention of the worthy multitudes of men of good will toward Jehovah? Again the awake world-watchman, the “slave” class, must undertake another world educational campaign following their restoration as witnesses after 1919. Such a global work has now been under way for more than forty years and is reaching its fruitful culmination. The facts show that during this time and up to the present hour the “slave” class has served as God’s sole collective channel for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth. Just as the early Christian congregation collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth, so in our time. (Eph. 3:10) Abundant spiritual food and amazing details as to the doing of God’s will have been flowing through this unique channel actually as a miraculous evidence of the operation of holy spirit. The present stature of the New World society of Jehovah’s witnesses, numbering nearly a million ministers in 175 lands, gives eloquent testimony that it is not the product of human ingenuity. Rather, it is the product of holy spirit operating theocratically through a tested channel, influencing the lives of dedicated men and women in all walks of life.—Zech. 4:6.

  Debator must think out knuckles drag on the ground.

  Cheers

  Chris
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  debator

  I am sorry for the delay.

  Hi Isaac

  You cannot put the accusation of inspiration on a group. They have to claim it for themselves. As deut 18:18 points out they have to say they are speaking the actual inspired words of God themselves. You cannot say "They put that badly so I am going to accuse them of claiming inspiration from God by it". Thats not how being a false prophet works biblically.

  The scriptures on Hananiah say he directly claimed to say the inspired words of God himself against Jeremiah. There is no comparison between him and witnesses accept the one you fabricated. The witnesses have always denied openly that they have any inspiration from God.

  Jeremiah 28:10-11 (New International Version)

  10 Then the prophet Hananiah took the yoke off the neck of the prophet Jeremiah and broke it, 11 and he said before all the people, "This is what the LORD says: 'In the same way will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon off the neck of all the nations within two years.' " At this, the prophet Jeremiah went on his way.

  I must say while I find you points interesting Isaac but I do not agree with them.

  Hi Psacra

  You are using circular reasoning. To say you utter God-given prophecies is to claim inspiration from God they are both the same thing. Witnesses have never claimed inspiration from God (in fact openly deny it) and they have never made unique inspired Prophecies. Any understandings they have can all be discerned from bible chronology and already written prophecies from the bible:- "Times, time and half" "day for a year", "This generation will by no means pass away" (Jesus's own words), signs of eathquakes, pestilences wars, "disgusting thing" etc. The bible itself says "let the reader use discernment/understanding" on them so we are expected to look out for Bible based signs and check bible chronologies (as the jews did to be in expectation of the messiah) and draw from them in preparation for Armageddon. This is why they were written. The bible isn't just a good read but a usuable tool to keep us "ready".

  You might not agree with what the witnesses have concluded from bible chronology and Bible prophecies concerning the end but this is not claiming to be able to be "inspired of God".

  You basically are accusing the witnesses of using the Bible too much. Can a person use the bible too much?

  Hi TD

  In essence yes, but there is the point that the people themselves also have to claim they have "Active guidance" (inspiration from God directly away from the bible writings) as you put it. For them to come under the judgement of being a prophet or false prophet as the Bible writers understood this point to be. Calling it "God-breathed" (and your right the bible coming into being itself "inspired writings" is the best example of this) they had to claim this active inspiration.

  Passive guidance is as you put rightly is using the bible but I would also include guidance from spirit after asking in prayer to this. This is were the confusions sets in.

  Ephesians 6:18
  And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.

  We must not put a man-made limit on spirit saying it can only act through direct inspiration from God. The bible itself is called the "sword of the spirit" so showing that using that is also being spirit guided. The bible itself also differentiates between the actives Gifts of the spirit that the apostles got and what we are left with after they stop.

  1 Corinthians 13:8-9 (New International Version)

  8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

  This is a whole new discusion in itself.

  But my point for the sake of this discussion, is solely on what qualifies specifically to be a false prophet biblically and this is to claim direct inspiration from God to be able to "say the very words of God" as per the qualifications in Deut 18:18-22. If we them add Jesus's qualifications for false prophets in this time of the end aka doing signs, miracles, claiming to be Christ himself. then this even less applies to the witnesses.

  Thank you for your thoughtful reply it was a pleasure to read and reply too. Your summary is fair I just had to qualify it with spirit guidance though prayer.

  Hi black sheep

  Like I said to TD

  God openly says that we will get spirit guidance. how this manifests itself is a large subject for debate itself. but I reiterate people are not condemned for claiming spirit guidance/help but for claiming to "speak the words of God" himself falsely.

  Romans 8:26
  In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

  Thank you everyone for taking time to reply to me.
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  Titus

  Hi debator.
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  Black Sheep

  God openly says that we will get spirit guidance. how this manifests itself is a large subject for debate itself. but I reiterate people are not condemned for claiming spirit guidance/help but for claiming to "speak the words of God" himself falsely.

  They are putting word's into the Creator's mouth right here...... and then changing them... and you can bluster and pontificate until you are blue in the face, but I bet you won't find an English professor in your local University that will agree with you.

  Cheers

  Chris

  
• 

  debator

  Hi black sheep

  I'm sorry I don't agree, both your quotes actually further confirm that the "Creators promise" is on the peaceful new earth which is already prophesied scripturally

  Psalm 37:11 (Amplified Bible)

  11 But the meek [in the end] shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

  The proviso of "when" is always separated and different. On top of that, are you saying their introduction to a magazine is claiming inspiration?

  Bad grammer? no the best wording? yes I'll give you that. But anyone that knows anything about witnesses will know they are always refering To God's promise of a peaceful new earth in our publications.

  If you want to condemn them on such weak stuff that is your choice but You cannot change that they have always denied inspiration from God so your just trying to put it on them.

  If someone read this magazine introduction then read that we do not consider ourselves inspired they would realise it was not meant to be taken the way you are trying to force it to be.

  I reiterate from every example in the bible they have to say they are able to "speak the very words directly from God" themselves! And not have others claim they are doing it. My goodness the pharisees were always trying to put words in christians mouths like this. Accusations of "your claiming to be.....(this, that and the other)" and all the person can do is say "We have not claimed that".

  If someone genuinely believes they themselves can be "Inspired" from God at this time and say prophesies, signs from God. They will shout it out openly (as many modern Born-again churches do). Thankfully for us witnesses, it is Jehovah that does the judging though his son Jesus concerning who are the false prophets or not. Not people looking and searching for reasons to condemn witnesses. Right down to knit picking among the uninspired publications we use that are subject to error.

  Hi titus

  I don't see anymore of your post, it is blank?
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  Black Sheep

  I'm sorry I don't agree, both your quotes actually further confirm that the "Creators promise" is on the peaceful new earth which is already prophesied scripturally

  Thanks for that.

  I wanted to show my visitor how cult members deal with cognitive dissonance.

  It worked a treat. Her jaw is on the floor

  Cheers

  Chris
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  Mad Dawg

  Ummm, just wondering. If EVERYTHING that the GB, Rutherford, and Russel said came from the Bible; where did they get:

  • The Princes' return in 1935?
  • The pyramids are Jehovah's "Great stone whitness?"
  • Blood fractions are allowed?
  • Heart transplants are not cannibalism?

  Just wondering.
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  Titus

  Hi debator.

  I don't see anymore of your post too. Have you ever answered me any of my questions?
• 

  TD

  Debator,

  Passive guidance is as you put rightly is using the bible but I would also include guidance from spirit after asking in prayer to this. This is were the confusions sets in.

  It certainly can be confusing, so I want to be clear that I am talking only about the transmittal of information from God to humans. I'm not talking about quirky coincidences that may or may not be Divine in origin.

  ( i.e. A person is about to lose their house, prays to God and suddenly a bank error in their favor is discovered.)

  The problem as I see it, is that on one hand, active guidance is indistinguishable from Divine inspiration, but on the other hand, any and every person, organization, or church has an identical and equal claim to passive guidance, since the Bible is for the most part, available to anyone.

  In other words, anyone that sincerely reads, and tries to understand the Bible can claim passive guidance and it's up to us as individuals to decide for ourselves who is right and who is wrong.

  Of couse one can claim that Jehovah's Witnesses have a knowledge of the Bible superior to any other church or group and if someone, after studying the Bible comes to that conclusion, I can respect that.

  But it would be quite another thing to claim that this superior knowledge is the result of spirit direction or guidance. That would require active communication of some sort on God's part. The line between passive and active guidance would be crossed and a claim of Divine inspiration would have for all intents and purposes, been made.

  It's also extremely problematic for any church or group that disavows active guidance and inspiration to support their authority by referring back to the first century. --A time when "Speech of knowledge", miracles, revelation and prophecy were the order of the day.
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  isaacaustin

  Just back from a 4 day absence and birth of a child. Debator start a new thread. I don't feel like going through this thread and finding what I need to reply to. Start a new thread if you like.