Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel 77 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  debator

  Deut 18 is a good one to show what is the requirement of being a false prophet particular verse 18.

  Deuteronomy 18:18-20 (New International Version)

  18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have notcommanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

  This is clear concise and simple. It is describing how we recognise an INSPIRED prophet that has heard words DIRECTLY from God and a false one that CLAIMS to have heard words from God. This is a lot more than just saying something "in the name of God" basically representing them but actually claiming to say words directly from God that he hasn't commanded them to say! Basically saying you are inspired of God.

  Hannaniah broke this rule completely by saying he heard from God directly the words he spoke and he died for it. So it's clear To be a false prophet you have to Claim to get the word of God from God himself and if those are not what God has commanded you to say directly that is when you get condemned.

  The principle for being an inspired prophet able to do prophecy is in the greek scriptures too.

  2 Peter 1:21 (New International Version)

  21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

  This is what is meant by being “God-breathed.” inspired.

  And as Deut 18 shows if you claimed this becoming a false prophet by lying the penalty was death.

  The deciding factor was someone saying they spoke words DIRECTLY from God himself.

  Witnesses have never claimed this!

  The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor
  is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in
  the light of the Scriptures.
  "Name and Purpose of the Watchtower," The Watchtower, 15 August 1950, 262-263

  In this regard, however, it must be observed that this “faithful and
  discreet slave” was never inspired, never perfect. Those writings by certain
  members of the “slave” class that came to form the Christian part of God’s Word
  were inspired and infallible, but that is not true of other writings since.
  Things published were not perfect in the days of Charles Taze Russell, first
  president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society; nor were they perfect in
  the days of J. F. Rutherford, the succeeding president. The increasing light on
  God’s Word as well as the facts of history have repeatedly required that
  adjustments of one kind or another be made down to the very present time.
  The Watchtower, 1 March 1979, page 23-24.
  
  I could have picked many more quotes and practically from every decade also reiterating that they are not Inspired.

  You can try and bring out badly phrased wording from watchtowers or awakes but all that shows is that they ARE imperfect and not inspired like they have ALWAYS said.

  The point about false prophets and hananiah Is they claimed to be speaking the Actual words of God himself.

  that doesn't stop us be confident in our speach giving credit to God as Gods people on earth.

  1 Peter 4:11
  If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

  The line is drawn when you say you ARE inspired and can speak words from God himself and incidently any other Gods. (this would include Jesus if you think Jesus is God and claim to get words from him).

  an example for you to think about is Papal infallibility.

  Papal infallibility is the dogma in Roman Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error [ 1 ] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation,
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  isaacaustin

  Debator said:

  Hannaniah broke this rule completely by saying he heard from God directly the words he spoke and he died for it. So it's clear To be a false prophet you have to Claim to get the word of God from God himself and if those are not what God has commanded you to say directly that is when you get condemned.

  My reply: The Wt called thier 1914 generation nonsense 'the Creator's promise'...which is the same thing as saying that they are God's words. God surely did not command the WT to print a lie.
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  teel

  The deciding factor was someone saying they spoke words DIRECTLY from God himself.

  Witnesses have never claimed this!

  That's just BS. Here's just one of many occasions (thanks Black Sheep) the GB claimed the words of the WT is God's word, not to mention the fact that being God's earthly channel means they carry God's word to His subjects.

  Edit: isaacaustin's other example is also a good one, where they said it's the Creator's promise. I was also apalled by reading they actually printed that "how appropriate would it be for God to bring Armageddon at 1975" - not the exact quote, but the word "appropriate" seemed very presumtuous in this context. They not only say it's coming from God, it's almost as if they tell God what to do! And God did an inappropriate thing in 1975.

  
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  isaacaustin

  teel, the org's claim on 1914 is a mirror of Hananiah (whom the Bible calls a false prophet)...both took God's written word and imposed thier own time constraints on it...calling it the words of God, or 'the Creator's promise'. Regarding 1975, the org called it the appropriate time for God to act, and also said that for Jesus to be the lord of the sabbath, the 7th millenium would have to follow the first 6000 yrs of man's existance and be the one of rest.
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  debator

  Hi teel

  Thnakyou for your reply

  As you can see Deut verse 22 confirms 18....clarifying "that is a message the LORD has not spoken" in context with the chapter

  The governing body do not claim to be inspired that is enough to prove they are not false prophets biblically which is confirmed by Deut 18:18-22

  I wonder why you do not put the context of the whole definition of being a false prophet in deut 18 in your scripture choice? Your next explanation shows a bit of dishonesty on your part.

  All jews understood deut 18 to be claiming to be inspired and literally getting messages from God himself.

  How would they know someone was telling the truth or a lie?

  Joe bloggs could say "I spoke to God last night in Divine revelation and he told me that it would rain next week?" and if it didn't rain you could tell that he was a false prophet who had claimed he spoke the word of God but didn't.

  Now if instead Joe blogs said. "I read the bible and saw that God said to moses on week 10, of month 4, 2000 years after year y it would rain and I calculate that to be next week!? is he falsely prophesying if it then doesn't rain? No but he would have to go back to the bible and check his calculations on bible chronology and be refined on his mistaken understanding. This is were refinement come into it.

  Duet 18 makes it final you have to say you are getting words DIRECTLY from God. That you are literally inspired.

  Your blurred unbiblical definition would put the expectation of perfection on imperfect men to get intepretation of ACTUAL bible prophecy and chronology absolutely right or else!!! but this simply isn't biblical

  The minute witness shepherds denied any ability to be inspired they do not even qualify to be assessed as false prophets. And thats simply it.
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  Mad Sweeney

  This is a pointless discussion. This very week's WT study claims holy spirit directs the GB to print TOTAL BULLONEY and whether that semantically makes them a "false prophet" or not it DOES make them BLASPHEMERS AGAINST GOD.

  Arguments over words and whether certain words apply to certain people are a waste of time. Boil it down to WHAT MATTERS. What matters is the GB have been wrong about EVERY prophetic interpretation they have EVER made and BLAME GOD for it.
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  isaacaustin

  “True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end of the world,’ even announcing a specific date. …Yet, nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? …Missing from such people were God’s truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them.”—Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 23**

  “So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? …He had a “prophet” to warn them. This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. …Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?” —The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197

  “We can be happy, therefore, for Jesus’ assurance that there will be survivors of ‘the generation of 1914’—that this generation will not have completely passed away—when the ‘great tribulation’ rings down the curtain on this wicked world system.”—The Watchtower, October 15, 1980, p. 31

  Did Jesus assure us that there would be survivors of the 1914 generation? The WT is saying he did.

  “More accurately, was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a ‘prophet’ in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel back there in 613 B.C.E.? What were the qualifications? …It is of importance to every individual on earth to identify the group that Jehovah has commissioned as his ‘servant’ or messenger. …For this reason forthcoming issues of The Watchtower will further discuss the identity and work of Jehovah’s commissioned messengeras revealed in His vision to Ezekiel.”—The Watchtower, March 15, 1972, pp. 189-190

  The org is convicted by their own writings.
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  isaacaustin

  agreed Mad Sweeney, all Debator's points have been addressed and refuted on this thread and countless times in the past.
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  teel

  debator, once again, the WT has claimed that their words are coming directly from God. What more would you want?
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  isaacaustin

  Its like a bank robber who says he is not a criminal. Is he not a criminal because he specifically says he is not one, or do his actions belie his words?