by Mindchild 85 Replies latest jw friends
I was a dub for 20 yrs or so. I have seen a great deal of depression and two cases of suicide. Many attend because they can't see anything better in the 'world'. I am more inclined to be charitable toward JWs in general. There will be those that deserve worse treatment!
ISP
Sorry I'm late for this debate but.....You don't really want to hear why do you?? Ok
Do the Witnesses deserve respect? First of all we have to break this question down. There is really more than one question here.
1) Do the rank and file members of the JW's deserve respect?
2) Do the Elders deserve respect?
3) Do the Worldwide organizational leaders (Governing Body and Traveling Overseers) deserve respect?
4) Does the Religion itself deserve Respect?
Is that fair enough to start with?
TimB
ok even though I have not heard the opening arguements, I feel that at this point it is necessary to establish what is meant by 'respect' I would appriecate a definition by both sides of this debate and hopefully an agreement or establishment of the term, before we proceed!
May the prosecutor please begin!
The Honorable Judge Venice
*hey who stepped on my cape???, that's a federal crime you know*
"Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are."
I submit this definition of "respect"
(from Cambridge Dictionary of American English)
respect (POLITE ATTITUDE)
noun [U]
the polite attitude shown toward someone or something that you consider important
Some drivers don't have any respect for other motorists.
Respects are polite expressions of greeting, friendship, or sympathy: Give my respects to your parents.
We stopped by the funeral home to pay our respects.
respect
verb [T]
We should try to respect one another no matter what we believe.
respectful
adjective
The protestors were respectful and polite.
respectfully
adverb
Most old acquaintances address him respectfully as "Governor."
I went back and read the beginnings of JWs. Russell was just another man that was ambitious in his quest for spiritual leadership. He had the resources to start building a religious empire. Everyone else that came along after him had his or her own ambitious ideas. Maybe in the beginning honest hearted ones felt that being part of the empire was God’s will, and “sold their lives to it.” After finding out that the empire was not what it was trumped up to be, they could not get out without suffering loss. And so they stay, and to stay sane, they continually convince themselves that it is the “truth.” In their hearts they know that things are not right, but they are caught up in a crazy maze. Example:
Circuit Overseer: Was raised in the “truth” to go as high up in the organization as possible. In order too achieve that goal must keep his nose clean; be obedient to all organizational laws. He does all of that. He is finally appointed as Circuit Overseer. He will do “anything” he is told to hold that position. Will “justify” any situation that his conscience does not agree with, because he has too much to lose. His whole world is the WTS and its goings on. Does he still believe that it is the “truth?” He doesn’t want to think about it.
This scenario can apply to any JW. Do they deserve respect? Yes! Why? First of all every human being deserves to maintain their dignity and because they are pitiful slaves of each other, and that is pitiful.
Pureheart
Does the Religion itself deserve respect?
I do accept the definition of respect submitted. Only I would like to add "the acknowledgement of the positive effects the person or group has had on others".
We need to look at the good that the religion does as well as the bad. In the process, we need to keep in mind that every organization has bad in it. At what point does the bad in an organization justify withholding respect?
Before we begin looking at the Witnesses, let's keep in mind that there are many organizations that do many good things for people but are still involved in scandals concerning how people are treated, how the money is handled and the ethics/motives of the leaders. Some that come to mind are, The Salvation Army, The United Way, Unicef, The Red Cross...etc. Do we withhold our respect from these organizations and ignore the good that they do because there is some corruption? That of course is a personal decision but most people respect these organizations for the good that they are attempting to do in spite of the controversy.
Now for the Witnesses. What good have they done as a Religion.
The witnesses provide hope for people who have given up on other religions and themselves. They give them hope for a new way of life, new respect, and new friends. Is this bad. Yes and No. No, because this hope enables many to raise themselves from the criminal lifestyle they felt mired in. It gives those suffering from depression the power to leave their own home to be with like minded people.
The witnesses have exposed the hypocracy of many other religions and governments in the process of trying to make themselves look good.
They do help others in times of disasters. Do they exagerate their efforts when reporting? Yes, but some good is done in the meantime.
They brought us all more personal freedom in the US because of their fights in the courts in the early and mid 1900's.
They arguably teach good family values. At least when the children are preteen. It is arguable because each individual has a different idea about what they value in a family.
I'll take a break here and let the prosecution rebutt. (Plus I need a cigarette break)
TimB
In reply to Tim's excellent questions I add these comments.
Tim asks:
1) Do the rank and file members of the JW's deserve respect?It is my argument that rank and file members of the JW's be excluded from consideration for this arguement on the basis of individuals, namely that any said individual does or does not deserve respect because this is too general of an inference and there are individuals who are working in the JW organization with the aim of correcting known problems to reform the organization. Such personal individuals are worthy of my personal respect.
2) Do the Elders deserve respect?
3) Do the Worldwide organizational leaders (Governing Body and Traveling Overseers) deserve respect?
4) Does the Religion itself deserve Respect?
On the other hand, individuals who actively participate in the organization are by necessity linked with the overall consequences of their participation. It can be argued for instance that in a corporation, individuals share the rewards of the corporations effectiveness or ineffectiveness in the marketplace. These same individuals also share a moral responsibility in the actions of a corporation (imagine a corporation that carelessly and recklessly had little regard for enviornmental safety and caused massive amounts of castatrophic pollution...then the shareholders have the assoication by proxy for being part of this group.)
My same arguement extends to elders, circuit overseers, district overseers and even the governing body. None of these individuals may be evil men bent on destroying life, in fact they are likely feeling just the opposite. So, I address respect in the sense of it applying to the actions of individuals, the fruitage of their labor, not the people themselves.
Finally, does the religion deserve respect? It's open season here.
Skipper
Your Honor,
I need a sidebar....(whispering) "sorry about the robe thing. I was just trying to find out if it's true that judges don't wear anything under their robes."
TimB
You Honor,
If Tim get's to peek under your robes...so do I Fair play you know.
Skipper
ok after hearing both sides on this matter the term 'respect' will herby representrespect (POLITE ATTITUDE)
noun [U]
the polite attitude shown toward someone or something that you consider important
Some drivers don't have any respect for other motorists.
Respects are polite expressions of greeting, friendship, or sympathy: Give my respects to your parents.
We stopped by the funeral home to pay our respects.
respect
verb [T]
We should try to respect one another no matter what we believe.
respectful
adjective
The protestors were respectful and polite.
respectfully
adverb
Most old acquaintances address him respectfully as "Governor."
_______________________
Also this court will not recognise any of this regarding 'rank and file' or individuals, as all individuals are to be respected in this country that is their right as citzens. We will attempt to see if the org is deserving of respect. I also would like to see it established weather or not the WTS actually take respect away from it's memebers. In doing so it would be violating thier civil rights.
Now that this has been established may the opening arguments commence. Mr Prosocuter please begin!
"Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are."
