Ebonics Homework

by Tatiana 30 Replies latest social humour

• 

  yrs2long

  Hmmm,

  I would be glad to show you plenty of documentation. I can email it to you or refer you to literature and various studies on the subject. Most people view it from a lay person's viewpoint, not having much info on language structures and language acquisition. To the untrained ear, it does just sound like 'bad' English.

  Children are not taught language, they intuit the rules of the language of their environment. In the case of Ebonics, they are exposed to it first, as a primary language. Hence, they learn Ebonics features and grammar before they are exposed to Standard English. And when you live in isolated communities, there is less social interaction with other cultures and languages which can cause the language more distinct from others. Because Ebonics is intelligle to Standard English, it is often difficult for a child to determine where the differences lie. An interference occurs which doesn't occur when a person learns a language entirely different from his own. He has to scrap all the rules of his old language and start with a pretty clean slate. But keep in mind that the person who undertakes this endeavor is much more successful when he is greatly motivated to do so. But why should he want to change anyway? Changing it may possibly bring ridicule and cause him to be less accepted among his family and peers. Exposure to TV is not meaningful enough as social interaction for the child to change the way he speaks when the majority of people in his family and community speak a different way. Besides, there is also a cultural pride in speaking a certain way in your community.

  I will return to this as I am at work and have to troubleshoot some server problems.
• 

  Hmmm

  LOL

  nice way to turn it around friend. *shaking head in disbelief at this one*

  I'm glad you saw that. It seemed to me that you were intentionally misreading my words, so I chose to intentionally misread yours. I'm glad you saw the tongue-in-cheek aspect. But as you were perhaps a little careless in your post, allowing me to misread it, I was perhaps a little careless in mine. Hopefully it will stand as a lesson to both of us to be more careful in how we phrase things in this potentially emotion-charged discussion.

  Now then, isn't using the word "refusing" being just a bit of a drama queen? Have you seen alot of inner city kids at the age of 6 or 7 saying "uhnh uh, ain' no way I gonna talks proper, an you kint makes me... das right, I refuse to learns"? Or do they just refuse in their heart, like Sarah?

  I don't think I'm exagerrating. I'm not going to give you the whole "some of my best friends..." speech, but my closest friend for the past 15 years is black. We're closer than I've ever been with my fleshly brothers. Our ability to discuss anything dispassionately, in addition to growing up in an 80% black community for most of my life, has given me a good deal of exposure to this issue and others. That doesn't make me an expert, (which is why I was initially interested in reading some "expert" opinion on the issue) but it gives me enough experience and observation to form an opinion of my own.

  That having been said, I do think it is often a "refusal" to learn standard english. Very often, there is immense peer pressure on young people to fit in. Someone caught speaking "too proper" is called a "sell-out", "wannabe", etc... Many of my friends (and myslef to a much lesser degree) could speak the Queen's English at the Kingdom Hall or the workplace, and use all the most current slang when hanging out with friends. But my friends would lament the fact that their younger brothers or sisters would be teased so much at school if they slipped up and used "proper" english. This is what I think often leads young people (black/white/brown/yellow/red, etc...) to "refusing" to learn proper grammar.

  This would be perfectly fine in a social setting, but when these kids go on a job interview and find themselves unable (or unwilling through some mis-placed sense of pride or community) to speak proper english--and thus appear under-educated, that's what I find sad. Is it the interviewer's fault that he automatically associates slang and non-standard grammar with a lack of education or inability to learn? Maybe. But how is he to know? It kind of defeats the purpose of interviews, doesn't it?

  Language is fluid like a muthafucka. You can spend time worrying about whether that is good or bad, but that is all you are going to do about it.

  I agree completely. Since language is so fluid (and contemperary american slang much more so than the "official language") I'm interested in the static African grammatical underpinnings, if they exist.

  I have no problem with slang. But I think it's irresponsible for school systems to not do their best to give young children all the tools they'll need to survive and prosper in modern society. Maybe the Brits have a superior system of driving (on the other side of the road) but it would be foolish to allow them to come to the US and not insist that they learn the "proper" way to drive here. It has absolutely nothing to do with the legitimacy of driving on the left.

  To give a language example: I went to France a few years ago. My friends were very frustrated that they couldn't speak French. They blamed the French for not speaking English, and generally let it ruin their trip. I, on the other hand, realized that I was in a country that spoke a certain language, and that if I wanted to get around, I wasn't going to be able to demand that they cater to my lack of knowledge. I had a great time struggling through french phrases, watching the young woman on the Metro (who was gorgeous) struggle to keep from laughing as I tried to strike up a conversation with her. (By the way, the French words for "Christian" and "dog" are very similar.)

  I'm not saying it can't be educated out of them, but I'm very doubtful if it makes sense to make that the target of said education. Many black people end up able to speak more than one type of english.

  Agreed, "many black people..." but what about those who don't learn? Should we excuse it and say they simply speak a different dialect and let them fall through the cracks of the educational system?

  This discussion is really here nor there, beyond two people sharing their opinions, and has gotten off track. My first post was asking for resources that could tell me upon what African sounds and languages ebonics was based.

  Hmmm

  PS yrs2long: I'll have you know that Teejay is happily married (I, on the other hand, am gloriously single).
• 

  Hmmm

  yrs2long,

  I would be glad to show you plenty of documentation.

  That would be great. My email is open. Language is not my specialty, so don't send me someone's Doctoral dissertation. :) The explanation that you provided is very compelling, and I'd love to read more.

  I'll probably be slow to respond the rest of the day (what a coinkidink, I've got server and router issues to troubleshoot here) but it would be good weekend reading material.

  Thanks,
  Hmmm
• 

  yrs2long

  Hmmm,

  Black kids in the inner city grow up speaking Ebonics as their first language and it's not until at least a few years later that they are confronted with Standard English in the schools. Once you learn a first language, you don't have to constantly monitor that you are using it correctly. After learning it, the focus shifts more toward expressing ideas rather than on if you used the appropriate tense, subject and verb agreement, etc. Otherwise think how labored conversating would be with each person double checking his grammar.

  People who learn Ebonics in the home must at some point be taught Standard English. And they need to be able to practice it. Many people have taken a different language in high school and promptly forgotten it through disuse. The same applies. What good does it do for a student to be instructed in the classroom for a few hours a day but once he goes home, the family doesn't use it, neither do his homeboys in the hood, nor the next-door neighbor, the grocery clerks, etc. Not seeing the value, he promptly forgets about it. Who here can remember the specifics of English grammar from high school?

  I agree with you that eventually the kids are hurt by not learning Standard English when they go to work or muct interact outside of their neighborhoods. But the school systems also fail them by not recognizing and showing the differences between the two varieties so the students can learn to switch between the two. They often wait until the window of easy language learning has closed and then it becomes a much more difficult process.

  Anyway, it was a coincidence that you mentioned speaking French because studies have turned up anomalies of black students who aced french classes while failing English. Why would that be? Apparently because there are other dynamics involved besides intelligence.

  As for the specifics of how Ebonics developed and why it is difficult to eradicate it, and even if it really should be eradicated, I will send those details to you along with references by email so as to keep down the bandwidth. I also am at work and have to work overtime tomorrow bringing a system online.

  Take care.
• 

  Tatiana

  "Surely we can examine dialect differences, and we can teach the standard forms, without running down ANY student's kind of English. There are more important things to worry about and many more useful kinds of things to teach. At the same time, we can surely make it plain to our students that acquiring good control of the standard dialect is just a normal part of getting educated, and not a commitment to the 'establishment'. The schools should be a bridge to a wider world, not a prison with standard-speaking guards, for students who speak a nonstandard dialect."

  This was actually written twenty-six years ago, by David E. Eskey. An intelligent viewpoint, IMO.

  April
  "Love never dies." Voivodul Vlad Draculea (from Bram Stoker's Dracula-1992)
• 

  SixofNine

  Hmmm, thanks for the reply. I think we are pretty much on the same page with this one.

  Btw, if you were trying to use christianity to pick up a gorgeous french woman, you really are a dawg. Not that I haven't used my spiritual awakenings as an opening for conversation myself, lol.

  She said "tell me; are you a christian, child?"
  and I said "man, I am tonight!"
  {marc cohen- walking in memphis}

  yrs2long, I enjoyed your comments also.

  These are problems w/o clear solution. I suspect that better answers are likely to be found in the theater dept. than in the english classroom.
• 

  Hmmm

  SixofNine,
  

  Btw, if you were trying to use christianity to pick up a gorgeous french woman, you really are a dawg. Not that I haven't used my spiritual awakenings as an opening for conversation myself, lol.

  Nahh, I wish I was that smooth. This is actually unrelated to my trip to Paris. I stayed with some Haitian "friends" in Chicago once on a big JW outing to the Windy City. I wrote a thanks-for-the-hospitality card to the sister at whose house I stayed. I was mildly smitten with her daughter, so I thought I'd earn a few brownie points by writing the card in French. (The mother speaks English, but her first language is French, and I was trying to be Rico Suave.) That's when I found out the similarity in words.

  Hmmm
• 

  yrs2long

  It's not really enough to say that kids need to learn the standard without analyzing why such learning hasn't already occurred naturally. Surely you don't believe that millions of black kids simply refuse to learn the standard. There appears to be a need for something to bridge the gap from Ebonics to Standard English. Also, there are other things that need to be addressed, namely, racial attitudes and economic conditions that cause languages and dialects like Ebonics and even Spanglish to flourish.

  Problems occur when the Ebonics speaking child enters the classroom and meets the Standard English teacher who has no idea of the features of Ebonics. Especially does this happen if said instructor is inclined to think that Ebonics is simply lazy speech. More often than not, she corrects the student's speech very frequently thereby creating a child who either begins to shrink back from participating or becomes hostile to the teacher or process. Or she stamps out his creativity with her insistence on his use of a language style he has hardly grasped as different from his own. In many cases, the child simply checks out from learning. How different it would be if students were shown the difference between the two languages first and then when correcting writing assignments the teacher were to first judge the ideas and style of expression and issue a temporary grade on that criteria alone; then ask the student to rewrite using standard rules of grammar as have been discussed and demonstrated in the classroom. This would be fostering learning in a positive environment and would facilitate greater reception to education and greater learning.

  And Hmmmm, you are correct in saying,

  As with all language, "improper" use of vocabulary or grammar can eventually become accepted ("aint" finally made it into the dictionary). I'm aware that ebonics has rules of its own, but I find it very difficult to believe that it was created by someone with an english usage textbook in one hand, and a swahili usage textbook in the other, who invented specific rules based on "African sounds and language structure."

  True, no one sat down and intentionally created a fused language called Ebonics. It sort of began as an emergency language that took on greater distinction with the production of offspring who increased the vocabulary of said language, and with linguistic isolation.

  However, what people did was 'gather' a number of people from different tribes on the West African coast who spoke different languages, threw them together on a ship regardless of whether they were friendly or feuding tribes, sold them to a new country with a host of new languages, denied them access to bilingual programs and formal education and then relegated them to the fields. African slaves formed an emergency language using a mostly english vocabulary layered on top of west african language structure necessary for the most basic communication with slaveowners and each other. In addition, after slavery was abolished, they were left to live on their own in isolated communities recirculating and expanding this language.

  Yes, language is fluid but this is more likely to happen when languages come into contact. Observe the differences that exist in the varieties of English where there exist physical and even class barriers.
• 

  Hmmm

  Tatiana, SixofNine, and especially yrs2long, great posts.

  My choice of the word "refuse" was a poor one. I've been struggling to come up with a better one, but have not been able to. I was using it in contrast to "unable to learn." I think I expressed an inkling of what I meant earlier in the thread, and you've added layers, insight, and background that had not occured to me.

  I'm going to ruminate on your points a little more before responding further.

  Thanks again,
  Hmmm
  (BTW, I'm still waiting for you to email me the written resources or links that you PROMISED me!)

  [Edited to change "incite" to "insight". Yikes!]
• 

  SixofNine

  Hmmm, try replacing "refuse" with "are loathe". It works perfectly and the damn kids don't know whether to cap ya or slap ya.

  yrs2long, I really like the idea of looking at the origins of ebonics as "an emergency language". It explains much. I have used that same conceptual argument in trying to get my white rascist pig dog friends to be more understanding of black culture in general, ie; it is an "emergency" culture, born out of a truly perverse circumstance.