If you go back and get reinstated, will you join the theocratic school? What if you have a talk on something you don't believe?
Will you be going out in field service? What if you get a Bible study? Will you teach your study things you don't believe, but that the WT teaches?
If someone says something bad about the organization will you report him as a loyal JW should?
If you slip into (JW clasified)immorality will you turn yourself in?
If you become a JW, will you "to your own self be true"?
Will you shun the DF'd?
Give contributions to the WT?
Will you reach out for more priviledges?Read the WT for the WT study?
Protect the Organization?
Just a few questions to think about.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Joel thanks for the explanation. I wish you the best whatever you do. I agree that we should not disrespect JW as a whole. Many loving people are part of the org. But there are people who are not loving a part of them. I see them as no different from any other religion. All religions have lies and deciet and never have the total truth. Well whatever happens, I hope you are happy...that is what life is about, a journey for happiness. Good luck....
I think you're making a BIG mistake, if you're not ouright pulling our collective leg.
What emotional state are you in that you are willing to behave like the dogs in the parable? (MMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Vomit!)
I suppose if you want to believe it, you're free to do so. Just don't come whining to me at the end of your days about how you threw away your identity for a social order that despises you.
I wish you peas and carrots (they add a little color interest to vomit).
I truly believe the saying: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
I am not leaving Mitch. Even if I did become a Jehovah's Witness and celibate again he would love me just the same and I him.A woman who was living with a man, (having sex with him) would not be allowed to be reinstated/become active again if she continued to live with him - even if they didn't continue to have sex.
You cannot become ungay. I would simply become celibate again as I did for the first 30 years of my life.
The principle the elders would suggest would be "How likely do you think it is that two people who are attracted to each other, and love each other, are NEVER going to hold hands, kiss, or have sex again ....for the rest of their lives??
You see, you have a double whammy. A person can hold hands, kiss, etc., and not have sex - but are hetersexuals. I truthfully doubt that gays will be given that optional arrangement. You will be expected to behave as a straight man.
I agree - you can't become ungay. Good luck - and hope you cover your lifestyle and preferences well.
JW's have no more core values or truths than any other religion. That's why there are good/bad people in all religions - or having no religion at all. The people are the core values. If there is a God, I would suspect he judged people on how they lived their values - and what those values were.
Take care - and I hope you find contentment.
I've decided against commenting on your post point by point. I will simply say that I agree with some, disagree with some. What you've said here is relevant and good for only one person, and that person is you.
I can't say I feel sorry for you or happy for you, but to me you've become a very tragic figure. You seem to be one who is destined to be unhappy, forever trying to be what others want, never what you want. I could be wrong about that. Allowing your emotions to play out in amongst the threads of JW.com is not a good sign, though.
Live your life, man. Live your life. If you want to be a JW, fine. It's your life. If you love Mitch, fine. Do what is best for Joel, but finding out what that is isn't going to happen talking to us. You've done that enough already.
I wish you luck joel my friend.
Like others though I'm not sure what core truths they have - is there anything that they teach that has remained constant or could be considered 'true' (ie. based on fact)?
You speak of a core truth. That is an intresting thing you are sensing. I think I can relate.
My path has led me to such a core truth, that is merely Love. Jesus greatest command. I can relate in wanting the JW Religion to be a part of that core truth. When I was little that core love came from my parents, it felt good and warm and protective. It shifted onto the Org when I got older. The only problem was when this core truth became ignored when I was not allowed to become an adult. While it is true that core love is within us all, there are places where it is allowed to florish, and places where it is supressed and controlled.
Everyone needs to find those places and identify them in thier own lives.
We all long to touch that core truth that connects us with the devine within us.
Good luck with your search,
Love and Light
The path that you have decided to take has been one of hurt and frustration for me. I wish you luck in it. Somehow I don't think you will stay on this path. You said that A Common Bond, (Homosexual Jehovah's Witnesses) was not for you. So what is? How will the elders in whatever congregation you go to accept you saying that you are a celebate gay man. I have never heard of a known gay man being an "approved" Jehovah's Witness. Like I said, I wish you luck.
Is this a light saber in my pocket or am I just happy to see you?
"Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
joel, what is the real reason for all this?
Come on, you know that the JW's do not have the 'truth'.
You know that you will be forced to agree in silence with doctrines that not only you have personal disagrement with for personal reasons, but have strong objections to for clear, substansive, more objective reasons. What did you say? "I believe in total honesty as a core value to my being".
Not only would you have to agree in silence, you might even have to say things that you do not agree with with. What did you say? "I believe in total honesty as a core value to my being".
You know your homosexuality is not something to 'struggle against' as a celibate, but is part of you, not some decision you can reverse, not a tattoo you got when you were drunk you can have lasered away. You know that god knows perfectly well it is part of the spectrum of behaviour, as any decent Biology undergraduate could tell you, and not an evil act. What did you say? "I believe in total honesty as a core value to my being".
I also have to echo the comments about the unlikilhood of a Body of Elders accepting back a celibate gay living with his formerly physical now platonic non-JW lover. Pigs will fly, and I doubt if you could sit through the number of meetings you'd have to sit through to get back in good standing before you realise that you're making a big mistake.
I think that you lack a degree of psychological toughness that allows you to view the dissent and arguement here in the correct light. You long for unity and concordance with all... yet the price for that is your soul, not some mystical thing that survives death, but the giving up of your freewill and self-worth. You lacking this toughness is a fact, not a fault, okay?
I think it is unbalanced to expect a discussion board to be a place of unity and concordance just because this is a particulary attractive part of the 'package' you were sold when you were younger that you still long for. Everyone is different, something the JW's find hard to accept, not even accepting an individual's conscience, putting instead in its place the Organisation's interpretation, which is often subordinate to the Organisation's interests rather than any interpretation of 'faith'.
This means that the unity is in fact a sham, and that many Witnesses carry on much as we do, accept they wear false little masks most of the time, keeping those thoughts private or whispered to a select few. You KNOW that that is true, but you want to go back? Let's find a scripture to suit THAT...
It would be better for you to get counceling so you do not over react to such discussions, or to learn to avoid unpleasent discussions if it provokes such a response in you, or not to come here. Each of these choices is better than giving up your soul (literally sacrificing it to false religion). You say you see "posters that I care about becoming more negative over time", For fucks sake man, care about yourself a little more, and less about others!
Do not seek to impose your beliefs ("I have always believed that the harsh words exchanged here between people are inappropriate for the seriousness of the discussion") on us, or 'disfellowship' us when we don't agree. You know both actions would be wrong.
As for "I do not believe that Jehovah's Witnesses should be mocked for their beliefs" - well, fine, don't do it. But don't set yourself up as a judge my friend, that way lies folly, even if you are right. People coming out of the Dubs NEED to laugh at the ridiculous nature of their former beliefs... it's a way of getting BETTER, and you wouldn't deny them health, would you?
I agree that sometimes sweeping statements are made that are ridiculous. Sometimes maybe victims are used as ammunition by some rather than considered first as victims. I agree sometimes people do let animosity cloud their thinking, and that this does reduce the effectiveness of their points, as it shows when they make their points, and validates the Witness expectation of people who have left. But these people are victims of a high-control group. I think we should give them a break.
But even given the occasional inacurate sweeping statement, does that REDUCE the truth of many specific statements that are made? Does that invalidate the beneficial FACT that the pressure exerted on the Organisation due to child abuse cases has probably lead to a reduction in the frequency of such things happening again?
If a public discussion board is not the place to make accusations or for victims to seek assistance, please tell me, where is such a place? In which town, on what street is this place where assitance is offered, how do they pay for people who don't live in that town to go there, what is this places 'phone number? There is no such place, and please realise by suggesting the ONLY places the victims get the listening ear they need and deserve are inappropriate, you are suggesting they stay silent, as there is no alternative. Is your nausea more important than their freedom to say what happened, maybe for the first time?
You say our animosity towards the Witnesses clouds our thinking about what is indeed true. Look at the phrasing and psychology of that sentence of yours. It is vauge, motivated purely by your internal desires for something 'to make it all better', not based in any way on any fact of doctrine of the JW's. Thus I ask, again, joel, what is the real reason for all this? I don't believe your reasons man, sorry to be hard, but I feel I would NOT be to you as I would have you be to me if I didn't say clearly;
I DON'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING EVEN IF YOU DO, WHAT'S THE REAL REASON???
I think the root of the problem is that you have never accepted that the JW's are a high-control group. They're a stinking cult joel, if you'd ever understood or accepted that you'd cut your own tounge out for saying you're gonna go back.
Because of this, when people say negative things about Witnesses, you only see the persons, the individuals that fall under the description of 'Witness'. You don't see the cultists they are actually talking about.
You see, every JW you know is actually TWO people. The wonderful unique human being, and the cultist. You have the heart and compassion to see the real person under the cultist. Don't waste that heart and compassion by refusing to distinguish between the human being you can see and the cultist you know is there.
Example; my parents are warm, intelligent, truely wonderful human beings. However, under certain stimulus they would treat me like mindless, unreasonaing cultists, as they have been conditioned to react to certain stimulus in that way.
I don't rail against how unfair it is people say mean things about cultists who are really lovely people. I realise the cultist and the lovely person ARE TWO ASPECTS OF THE SAME PERSONALITY. It's almost like a psychiatric disorder.
So, quit the drama and the passionate posturing. Maybe the root cause is something YOU have to do something about. Maybe YOUR thinking need adjusting. Maybe you need to realise that the JW's are a high-control group. Maybe you have to let go of that elusive little vision JW's sell, that everything will be okay.
Like fuck it will. Life is awkward, unpleasent, difficult and nobody really knows what is going. It's turning it from this into something approaching a life that is important, finding the wonder and joy in it all, making it all worthwhile, that's what you should be doing, not getting stuck in the same space or going round in loops, or pointing the finger at others.
I hope you realise the day you appear on a platform at an assembly as an example of how someone can get out of the badness of the world, even though they were once (shocked voice) a "practising homosexual" (by now I'd think you would be quite good at it), is the day you do something you will NEVER be able to forgive yourself for, and that is the way you're heading.
Yes, all this is highly dramatic, but I am more than a little worried about and more than a little pissed off that you can sit there and type stuff I am damn sure you don't believe yourself, not really. You deal drama, well, reap it.
I might not agree with you all the time, but I've taken a liking to you, you have heart and a gentleness (even under severe provocation) that is admirable. As far as I am concerned, liking you means I get to bust your chops if I think you're being daft (and you have the same right in return). If I didn't care I wouldn't say anything.
Of course, you might really believe;
"There is a core truth there that cannot be denied. I sense it. I must reexamine it. I don't think anyone here can honestly dismiss it"
In a way you are right. It's a mind-sucking hiogh-control group that can blight peoples lives YEARS after they leave, as it has such a powerful influence on them. THAT'S a core truth, and YOU had better not dismiss it.
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
What's with all the CAPITALS isn't that rude?joke between me and you.
All kidding aside, very thoughtful post you must have spent a good deal of time on that one.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?