Progress Report ...

by cantleave 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • Heartbreaker
    Heartbreaker

    Cantleave, I know you can probably tell, being my friend now on Facebook that my children have too jumped headfirst into celebrating birthdays, holidays, and being generally normal kids. It's fantastic, and I've never felt better as a parent.

    Good for you and Nugget for being able to allow your kids a normal life. Please be as open as possible, as soon as possible for your kids so they don't feel a dread, as if they are displeasing Jehovah, family that is still in, or friends that don't approve. Our family takes a couple of our kids to a therapist now, and we are working through guilt and feelings of doing what is right/wrong. 10 is the prime age for wanting to do what you want, but labeling it as ok or not ok according to what their budding consciences allow, or how their support feelings feels. It's a tender time. I'm sure you are being supportive and backing your kids in being able to step out into the "world", but make sure they are ok too and have no lingering guilt.

    Good for you, and your whole family :)

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Thanks everyone

    CL - is there any risk of your kids dropping a clanger with any of their former JW buddies they may bump into?

    Besty - I think the oldest is safe, she saw some of her friends from the congregation and just said that there has been a lot illness in the family. She is very bright and has an excellent understanding of what is going on.

    Our son may well dob us in it, but we have come to conclusion that if he doeas it isn't a big deal. We don't want him feeling bad or worrying about what he says.

    At the end of the day it would be great to fade without consequence, but if we have to DA then so beit. We will be disinherited by my mother and brother won't speak to me (no loss), but our kids will be free from the cult and thats is worth making a sacrifice for.

    Blondie, I have been in so deep, my decision to leave is final, and I know nugget feels the same. I know it is a cult, even though I like many of the people I know in the organisation, I feel more and more frustrated by their behaviours. To go back back would be retrograde.

    Shamus, I do feel guilt for bringing my kids up for 9 years in the cult. I especially feel guilty for disciplining them during meetings and trying to turn them into mini adults. If I turn the clock back I would.

    Heartbreaker - It is a wonderful feeling that we can allow our kids to have a normal life. That they can make their own minds up about belief. Nugget and I certainly do not believe in the same things and will discuss the differences quite openly, but that's healthy and will, I hope enable our kids to be open minded about different belief systems.

  • besty
    besty
    but if we have to DA then so beit

    great - glad to hear you aren't living in the shadows...

    but - don't DA whatever you do. That is 'their' rules. They don't apply to you anymore. If they are hounding you and it has obviously gone judicial then tell them you won't be meeting with them and they should do what they have to do...make them read out 1 Cor 4:1-5 whilst you are on the phone - its an apostates friend that scripture :-)

    Just my 0.02 IMHO

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    4 Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God. 2 Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.

    Excellent use of scripture Besty!

  • besty
    besty

    props to hobo ken - but I think it should be up in lights for everybody considering how to conclude any conversation with a JW elder that thinks they can pronounce judgement....

    sidepoint - what is the NWT justification for using 'Jehovah' in verse 4?

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    what is the NWT justification for using 'Jehovah' in verse 4?

    1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures

    “Jehovah.” Heb., ???? (YHWH or JHVH)

    From App 1A and 1C it is evident that the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew characters (????) was used in both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint. Therefore, whether Jesus and his disciples read the Scriptures in either Hebrew or Greek, they would come across the divine name. In the synagogue at Nazareth, when Jesus rose and accepted the book of Isaiah and read 61:1, 2 where the Tetragrammaton occurs twice, he pronounced the divine name. This was in accordance with his determination to make Jehovah’s name known as can be seen from his prayer to his Father: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. . . . I have made your name known to them and will make it known.”—Joh 17:6, 26.

    There is evidence that Jesus’ disciples used the Tetragrammaton in their writings. In his work De viris inlustribus [Concerning Illustrious Men], chapter III, Jerome, in the fourth century, wrote the following: “Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed. Who translated it after that in Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Moreover, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian city of Beroea to copy it.” (Translation from the Latin text edited by E. C. Richardson and published in the series “Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschichte der altchristlichen Literatur,” Vol. 14, Leipzig, 1896, pp. 8, 9.)

    Matthew made more than a hundred quotations from the inspired Hebrew Scriptures. Where these quotations included the divine name he would have been obliged faithfully to include the Tetragrammaton in his Hebrew Gospel account. When the Gospel of Matthew was translated into Greek, the Tetragrammaton was left untranslated within the Greek text according to the practice of that time.

    Not only Matthew but all the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures quoted verses from the Hebrew text or from the Septuagint where the divine name appears. For example, in Peter’s speech in Ac 3:22 a quotation is made from De 18:15 where the Tetragrammaton appears in a papyrus fragment of the Septuagint dated to the first century B.C.E. (See App 1C §1.) As a follower of Christ, Peter used God’s name, Jehovah. When Peter’s speech was put on record the Tetragrammaton was here used according to the practice during the first century B.C.E. and the first century C.E.

    Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky′ri?os, “Lord” or The?os′, “God.”

    Concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures, George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63: “Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name, ???? (and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate [abbreviation for Ky′ri?os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”

    We concur with the above, with this exception: We do not consider this view a “theory,” rather, a presentation of the facts of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Well done Cantleave, and your very bright daughter, she impressed me and Mrs Wobble when we met. I am sure you are right that your lovable lad will be indiscreet at some point in the future, but who cares, he will perhaps only hasten the inevitable.

    Carry on being great parents to them both, they deserve it, and will love you forever for it.

    Love

    Wobble

    p.s On Besty's point of justification for using Jehovah here (! Cor 4v4), none whatsoever, surprise surprise, but in looking it up. I uncovered yet another blatant lie by the WT.

    In appendix 1D of the Reference NWT they state "Sometime during the second or third century C.E the scribes removed the tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint AND THE CHRISTIAN GREEK SCRIPTURES" (capitals mine) para 5 in App 1D page 1564.

    They know that there is no proof that the Tetragrammaton or the Divne name in any form was in the Christian Greek Scriptures, as there are no early manuscripits containing it.

    Bunch of shysters.

  • freewilly01
    freewilly01

    Wow amazing that we are out of that Cultish way of thinking and especially because of the love for our children how awesome is that! I sometimes relect back at how strict I was because of the noise or movement my kids were making at the Borg meets. Those meetings were torture to be at and to sit still for grown ups let alone kids!

  • AudeSapere
    AudeSapere

    Congrats on the progress!!

    You may soon have to change your alias to: didleave

    -Aude.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I remember you coming here with the name "Cantleave" and the story to match. I had hoped that wasn't a proclaimation of doom.
    Even if that is your current feelings, I am thrilled to hear that you broke the cycle for the sake of your kids. Regardless of the outcome, you will have reason to rejoice, celebrate over that single decision- one day.

    WOO HOO>

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