Hello Shelby, Thanks for your replies :)
Greetings, dear Stephen... and the greatest of love and peace to you!
The point I was making with the two verses is that we should neither hold your vision with contempt but test it and hold on to what is good.
Yes, I got that, thank you!
THE test is the word of God, the bible. The visions cannot contradict what is written in the bible. God is not double minded.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you, dear one. First, the Bible is not the Word of God - Christ is. The Bible SAYS Christ is. Second, the Bible is not necessarily how we "test" inspired expressions. The FIRST way to test is Christ, the Holy Spirit himself. Since that One leads us into ALL truth, we only need ask him. Then, through the ANOINTING that is IN us, that One will answer. The SECOND way to test is love. If an expression does not ORIGINATE in love... or direct in loving... or contains an unloving act/expression, it cannot be from God. For God IS love. The THIRD way to test is the "scriptures." Keep in mind, however, that the "Bible"... is not "scripture." The Bible CONTAINS scripture, yes. But it also contains others things. AND... there is scripture that is NOT contained in the Bible... but we will be LED to by the Holy Spirit... if we ask him.
My point is still the departed spirits of the dead and fully conscious, just no longer conscious or have any further part in what is done "under the sun" i.e. here on earth.
I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand this statement. I think you are confusing "conscious" with "knowing." They are unsconscious... in that they are asleep. And they don't anything... about anything... here or there. But it is TRUE that THEY don't have any further part in what is DONE... under the sun... or anywhere else. It is NOT true, however, that they don't have any further PART... in what is done under the sun.
In response to my statement that, "the man could NOT have been with my Lord in paradise on THAT day: my Lord himself did not enter paradise... until several days later..."you responded:
So that would make Jesus a liar? Or are we going to move the comma for this verse only to support our own doctrine as the NWT does to support the WT?
My response is no, neither. First, our Lord cannot lie. As HE said, "ALL the sayings of [HIS] mouth are righteous" and so NONE of them are twisted or crooked. As for the comma, I am not sure if you are aware of this but NO COMMA appeared in the verse at all, EXCEPT after the name "Ieosus." For example, in GREEK, before the comma, the verse says: "And said to him, Ieosus..." However, there is NO comma in the part of the verse that says: "Amen, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise."
So, it wasn't me who decided where the comma should go, indeed that there even should BE one. The word of my Lord is that there should not. It also quite "funny" to note that the Greek word "esomai" which is translated "you will be" in fact means "I will be"... and the Greek word "meta" which is translated "with"... ALSO means... "after" and "behind." You know, as is "metamorphosis."
To my comment that "First, he went to Hades for 3 days..." you responded:
This teaching floats around (like many others) but is not supported well in scripture, certainly there is no verse that clearly states that view.
Well, you're right: the scriptures don't support this very well. However, there IS Matthew 12:40, Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 27:43, Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22; Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:4; 1 Peter 3:18, 19 (and since I'm the only one between us that understands these are not scripture, I think it's safe to use them here).
I guess you favour the footnote here for example. 9 ( (A) In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into (B) the lower regions, the earth? [a] Footnotes: Ephesians 4:9 Or the lower parts of the earth?
Well, I can't recall that I've ever read it stated that way, but I would have to agree that that's where I was taken. It WAS inside the earth, about 3 miles or so, was my understanding...
There are plenty of other verses that state to the contrary the position of Jesus going to Hell, like verse 43 from above and those I have already quoted.
I'm sorry, but I truly don't get how "verse 43" says that, unless you're meaning that verse to mean that my Lord went STRAIGHT to "paradise." If that's what you mean... again, I have to disagree. Because if THAT were so... then he wasn't.... COULDN'T have been... resurrected (i.e., brought BACK to life FROM the dead)... because he never died. At least, that's what it appears you are saying. Is it?
I then asked you: how did the man GET IN... in light of what my Lord is recorded to have said TO HIS APOSTLES, whom he CHOSE: "I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." John 14:2, 3
You did not respond, however; rather, you stated that I "likewise [needed] to answer how Paul would" the verses at 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8; and Philippians 1:23-24. So, let's take a look:
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
This is true. Flesh with its blood cannot enter into the kingdom of the heavens. Not sure what that has to do with the man who died next to our Lord...
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Paul is saying that he was ready to put of flesh and be with our, who is a spirit. Yes. That still does not address my question, which was HOW could the man get in BEFORE the apostles... BEFORE those to whom my Lord said, "I go to PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU" and "I WILL COME AND TAKE YOU..." If the place had not yet even been prepared... and if my Lord was to come BACK and get those he was to take, HOW did the man get IN before such occurreces?
23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
Again, I don't see how this answers the question. Paul is speaking of and for himself, what he WANTED to do (i.e., "depart and be with Christ")... but was still NECESSARY for him to do (i.e., remain in the flesh). How do ANY of these verses answer the question "How did the man GET IN... BEFORE those specifically called and chosen by Christ himself?"
I then stated: "Now, I know that while you might not LIKE it, the accurate rendering IS "... I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." But those truths are not the only reason to know this phrasing is accurate. The FACT that the man COULDN'T have entered into paradise at that time is born out in the FACT that the resurrection has not yet occurred..." to which you responded:
In that case Paul is a liar and a deceiver too (see the verses from above)!
Nothing of the sort! I think the TRUTH here, dear Stephen, is that you FORGOT that the man COULDN'T have entered yet... or perhaps that truth wasn't accurately explained to you. In any event, some would call what you've done here a "red herring."
I then stated that: "It appears that you included 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 to say that when we're NOT in the body, we are with Christ and at home with him. Meaning, that as soon as we die, we are with him. Unfortunately, that's not accurate. I offer you Revelation 6:9, 10, to which you replied:
Good, a verse! Rev 6 writes about saints who die in the tribulation. Of course, this is another eschatological "can of worms" to open!
I must correct you here, however, as the verse states:
"I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held..."
And the word of my Lord to you is that John the Baptist... and MANY others... were slain for him, the Word of God, and the testimony they held ABOUT him... yet not all of them (and certainly not John) die in the tribulation. His word to you is that not all who belong to him die in the great tribulation but rather MOST are saved THROUGH it. Some also die before it (i.e., from Abel to the day the tribulation begins). Those who do NOT are saved... in the SAME way that Daniel was saved from the fire... and the mouths of lions.
Anyhow, a simple question will suffice, do you think that we are in the seven year tribulation and Jesus has opened the seals 1-4 described in the preceding verses of this chapter already?
Ahh, changing the subject... again. Good for you! Regarding the 7-year tribulation, my response is (1) the event lasts longer than 7 years (approx. 12-9 years, to be truthful) and (2) it has not begun, yet. When it does, there will be NO doubt that it has and has come upon mankind, trust me. I have seen its beginning... and its devastation. It is yet to come... and when it does, only those who put their trust in earthling man will be surprised. At when it comes... why... and how. I am only permitted to share with you Revelation 9:14, 15. Beyond that, I am not at liberty to share with any except those of the Body of Christ. Who will NOT be surprised, but will be quite ready. Because it is for such ones that the revelation of this event was written. Since I have not received from my Lord that you are yet a member of His Body I cannot share what has been given me with regard to it at this time.
As for the opening of the seals, only the first seal has been opened. I CAN explain that even, if you wish... but not in this thread. It is not within the scope of what needs to be addressed here.
Paul says clear to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
This is true. To be absent from the body, our SPIRITS are then with the Lord, yes.
Believers are with the Lord, but not in their body, which are in the grave.
This is also true. Again, for those who belong to Christ, the SPIRIT has returned to God, through Christ:
"Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:6, 7
"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." Genesis 3:19
"Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes," Genesis 18:27
"for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust." Psalm 103:14
So, while it is TRUE that our fleshly bodies return to the dust... our SPIRITS go back to God. HE retains them. Thus, when I went to the World of the Dead, there was NO LIFE... NO spirit there... until my Lord arrived. Only then could those there even have enough "life" to wake up, ask the question, "Is this it?" and then fall back asleep because this wasn't "it." But, as I shared, I also felt spirits elsewhere... and it was revealed to me that they were "under the altar," which is a place of protection from their enemies.
I then wrote: "I am not sure (nor, apparently, is my Lord for he offers no guidance) as to why you included Philippians 1:20-22. So I will wait for your response." Your response is:
Paul is one again talking about the same thing, when the spirits of believers go when they die. " 20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!"
You are mistaken as Paul wasn't speaking of WHERE anyone goes at all, here. He was saying (1) that he did not expect or hope to be ashamed of the Lord but would have enough courage, whether he was alive OR dead, Christ would be exalted in his body. What did he mean? Paul was still thinking that he could "gain" life by not sinning with his flesh... that through Christ residing IN him... he would stop sinning with his flesh. Did he? We don't know, do we?
We do know, though, that he confessed he had a constant battle with his flesh... and that when he wanted to do "good," what was "bad" was present IN him. (2) That the only reason he WAS living was Christ IN him (Romans 8:9-11), but if he DIED he would gain because he would PUT OFF the flesh that was causing him TO sin. Thus, death would be GAIN to him... because he would finally STOP sinning. HOWEVER... if he were to continue living IN THE BODY... there was "fruitful" gain for him because (a) he would progressively "conquer" his flesh (by means of the "fruits" of God's spirit) AND (b) his "work" would be "fruitful" in that it would result in others being joined to Christ... which was the WORK he was given to do as RESTITUTION for "persecuting" the Christ. Paul wasn't called because he was "good" or a "believer." Paul was called... because he was instrumental in putting to death those who WERE calling others to Christ... particularly your namesake, Stephen... and so had to do THEIR work:
"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord [Jesus], receive my spirit." Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was there, giving approval to his death." Acts 7:60-8:1
"Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am [Jesus], whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."Acts 9:1-6
"... the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." Acts 9:15, 16
"You know how I lived the whole time I was with you, from the first day I came into the province of Asia. I served the Lord with great humility and with tears, although I was severely tested by the plots of the Jews. You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord [Jesus] has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God." Acts 20:12-27
I then commented that "The man that Paul referred to in 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 is the Apostle John. Paul wrote that he didn't know whether the man went in body or in spirit. However, John was taken in SPIRIT, NOT in body, to the third heaven. And he was told later (41 years or so) to write what he was shown." You responded, however:
I am afraid you are mistaken. Read verses 6 and 7
Let's do that. Indeed, let's look at the ENTIRE account:
" 1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows. 2 Corinthians 12:1,2
Paul wanted to boast about what John had shared with him. And although John had told Paul, et al., that it was OUT of the body... in SPIRIT (Revelation 4:2)... Paul apparently wasn't sure and so didn't want to make a definitive statement to his audience. Continuing...
3 And I know that this man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows- 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.2 Corinthians 12:3-5
So, Paul felt it was okay to "boast" about this "man"... but not about himself, except with regard to HIS weaknesses. Why? The answer is further below...
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.2 Corinthians 12:6
So, Paul is SAYING that he COULD boast about himself, because whatever his boast was, it would be TRUE; however, he DIDN'T... so that no one would think more of him than they should, either by what he said... or did. BUT... he had NO problem boasting on behalf of ANOTHER. Why do we know that PAUL didn't have the revelation he was referring to? He explains:
7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Corinthians 12:7-9
What does this mean? That although Paul WANTED To see visions such as the man had... he COULDN'T. Why? Because... THE LORD KNEW THAT IF PAUL DID RECEIVE SUCH... HE WOULD BECOME CONCEITED... BOASTFUL... IN HIMSELF. SOoooo... to KEEP Paul from them... he allowed Paul a "thorn". His sight was increasingly diminished... and he was told that our Lord's MERCY... was sufficient for him, that although he was going blind (which was considered an AFFLICTION FROM GOD among the Jews)... he would still be able to show my Lord's POWER... NOT by the things he SAW... but by the things he DIDN'T see.
And, therefore, Paul wrote:
"Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.2 Corinthians 12:9, 10
Paul is talking about himself.
As to the "boasts" regarding his weaknesses in the flesh, yes. As to having gone into the third heaven, either in body OR spirit... no. That was John... who did enter... in spirit, as he said. Truly.
To my comment, "So, while Paul certainly may have had a HOPE of going to receive visions and revelations, the Bible does not have a record of it. That doesn't mean he didn't, though... and such well could have been recorded somewhere else and left OUT of the Bible canon... as was his FIRST letter to the Corinthian congregation. Again, though, the Bible does contain a record of John's revelation..." you responded:
OK, take a read here
And cited Revelation 1:9-11 and 19. Which I found interesting, because verse 19 says that the Lord said to JOHN:
19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
So, John wrote what he HAD seen (i.e., what he had related to Paul, et al., which included SOME of what is in the Revelation) as well as what he WAS seeing (Revelation 1:4-3:22) and what he would be given that would take place later (those parts of Revelation 4:1-22:21 that were still for the future). Next you say:
Personally I would say a body with the spirit is a dead body and the body with the spirit is a living body.
I think you mean a body WITHOUT the spirit is a dead body... and you would be correct. If not, then you are contradicting yourself...
As to the soul, it depends if you are a believer of Tripartite (theology) or not and once again, some tricky theological ground!
Don'cha just LOVE those words that even my Lord never though to use...) The "soul" is not the body, per se, dear one. It is a status: body with spirit is a LIVING soul. A body without spirit is a dead soul. The soul is not the body, however. Otherwise, the statement would be "a body with spirit is a living BODY, and a body without spirit is a dead BODY." They are not the same thing, however. A soul... is an entity. Dead or living. A body... is a vessel... that can HOLD a spirit. And a body can be flesh (with its blood) OR spirit. A SOUL, however, can only be of flesh.
Personally for me, the body is sleeping but the spirit is fully conscious and in another place "not under the sun".
Unfortunately, you are in error. The body does not sleep... it disintegrates and returns to the dust. Except for the bones, of course (unless they are pummeled or burned so that they become dust). The spirit, however, sleeps... and knows nothing... is unconscious... and conscious of nothing... while it is asleep.
The "destruction" of the spirit is everlasting, not finite as we might think of on this earth, hence Jesus words on eternal (conscious) torment.
Ahhhhh... I see what you're saying: that the "destruction" is abstract and represents the "torment" itself! Sorry, but this is another error. First of all, what you are suggesting is that God is unrighteous... and that cannot be. God is righteous AND merciful... and JUSTICE would not require someone who sinned for, say, a number of years, to be tormented... FOREVER. JUSTICE requires an EQUALIZATION... and the "penalty" does not fit the "crime" in what you are suggesting. Even humans don't have such illogical reparations.
No, dear one, the destruction is final... and everlasting, in that one cannot come back from it. There is no "third" death... or more. There is only the first and/or the second. To show you that it IS literal destruction, I share with you the Father's words to the Adversary, recorded at Ezekiel 28:12-19
"You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone [was] your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever." Ezekiel 28:12-19
For me, the confusion is that Paul's revelation have been assumed as those that John received 40 years later. Once again, is Jesus a liar? Was His promise to the thief false?
You're confused because no one has ever shared this truth with you. Why? Because THEY don't know. Even the WTBTS believes it was Paul's vision. But it was John's revelation, dear Stephen... and that John wrote about it 41 years later is no big deal. I ask you... when did he write is gospel account? Was it not AFTER he wrote the Revelation? And what that not 68 years later than when the events it speaks about occurred? It was. It was part of the things the Holy Spirit brought back to his mind. And, again, no, of course, my Lord is not a liar. You just misunderstand the statement... because someone put a comma in that was not there originally (at least, not in the Greek).
I do not agree. The body of the dead is physically in the grave and the spirit departs to another place to abide their until the resurrection.
The body... returns to the dust, dear ones. It is the bones that remain in the grave. The spirit does depart to another place, yes, to SLEEP... until it is returned TO the bones. Ezekiel might help you see this truth:
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know." 4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make spirit enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put spirit in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' " 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no spirit in them. 9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the spirit; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O spirit, and come into these slain, that they may live.' " 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and spirit entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet-a vast army. 11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "
This corresponds, dear Stephen, with my Lord's words recorded at Matthew 24:30, 31, where he speaks about gathering his chosen ones and those of John at Revelation 6:9-11:
"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the spirits of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to REST a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."
From my own simple understanding, man has a physical part, the body and a non physical part, the spirit.
This is correct, yes.
As to "the soul" that depends on your own tripartite or bipartite belief as mentioned before. Most would also believe "the soul" to be a non-physical part.
It is NEITHER! It is a status, an entity. One HAS a body AND a spirit, but one IS either a LIVING soul... OR a DEAD soul.
Anyhow, on to more weighty matters.
Indeed...
I am concerned as to what your understanding of the "eternal punishment" the Lord is describing here. I have supplied you many verses which clearly state what that is.
Which verses you misunderstand. I have explained it above, however, citing Ezekiel 28... as well as in my response to dear Yiz. Rather than take up even more board space restating it, I will respectfully direct you there.
OK, it looks like I should be quoting the ESV rather than the NIV in our discussions!
You should quote, if you need to quote at all, whichever version has the CORRECT rendering/transliteration. ALL of them contain SOME truth; however, NONE of them are completely accurate. Not by far. The BEST thing, however, is to simply quote the Holy Spirit, Christ. Wouldn't you agree?
Rest assured, the ESV is a tight translation compared with the venerable NIV but whichever you choose, annihilationism looks false.
Hmm... I have no idea what is meant by "tight... compared with the venerable NIV"... as I am not a Bible scholar. But I must ask: so, you think a MERCIFUL God would choose to torment folks forever... rather than just letting them simply be dead and gone? Truly?
You deny the very words of Jesus Himself from five verses earlier and the others I have quoted to you :( - Revelation 20:10 (English Standard Version) - 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I do NOT deny my Lord's words, not at all. I've shown you from Ezekiel 28 what happens with the Adversary... as well as explained to you the MISTRANSLITERATION of the words "torment" and "forever." As a result, I'm thinking that by now you're going, "hmmmm..." or you should be.
Doesn't matter what word for "hell" choose because it is thrown into the lake of fire and is called the second death - Revelation 20:14-15 (English Standard Version) - 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Ummm... you might want to read that again, dear one. "Hell" isn't the second death. "Hell" is thrown into the Lake of Fire... which Lake IS the second death. Those who go into IT... die a second time (i.e., they die, are resurrected to judgment, then go into the Lake of Fire, where they die AGAIN... a SECOND time).
Who follows the unholy trinity (the beast, the false prophet and the devil) into the lake of fire? "Death and Hades", i.e. "anyone name not found written in the book of life", that is all unbelievers.
Ahhhh, no again you misunderstand. "Death and Hades" are not "anyone who name is not written in the Book". Death and Hades go into the Lake ALONG WITH "anyone whose name is not written in the Book..." Death and Hades give up those IN them... as does the sea. But the SEA does not go into the Lake of Fire, dear one!
I then gave reference to what occurred with those of Sodom and Gomorrah, and you responded:
The torment that happened for a short while at Sodom and Gomorrah will be eternal punishment i.e. the everlasting torment mentioned elsewhere.
Well, let's see:
"Then the LORD rained down fire and burning sulfur from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah. He utterly destroyed them, along with the other cities and villages of the plain, eliminating all life-- people, plants, and animals alike. Genesis 19:24-25
"If the LORD Almighty had not spared a few of us, we would have been wiped out as completely as Sodom and Gomorrah." Isaiah 1:9
"Babylon, the most glorious of kingdoms, the flower of Chaldean culture, will be devastated like Sodom and Gomorrah when God destroyed them." Isaiah 13:19
"I will destroy it just as I destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns," says the LORD. "No one will live there anymore." Jeremiah 50:40
"Now, as surely as I live," says the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, "Moab and Ammon will be destroyed as completely as Sodom and Gomorrah. Their land will become a place of stinging nettles, salt pits, and eternal desolation. Those of my people who are left will plunder them and take their land." Zephaniah 2:9
[By the way, contrary to what many of the "false christs" teach... Sodom was NOT destroyed for things like homosexuality, which is a sin of the flesh. Sodom's sins were "pride, laziness, and gluttony, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door." Ezekiel 16:49]
Your view of Annihilationism is exactly the same as every JW out there.
You use words that suggest to me you believe yourself to be a Bible scholar. I must confess, I am not. I only know what my Lord tells/shows me. As to your suggestion, I must reply, not entirely. Their view is that once someone departs into the Lake of Fire they simply cease to exist, which is correct, with the exception of the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet. Those ARE tormented for some time (quite a long time) because they not only responsible for their own sins (as are the PEOPLE who into the fire)... but every one of the people they LED to sin. So, yes, their time of torment is quite long.
OK, still testing this prophecy. I think you need to really focus on the weighty questions I have brought this second time round, namely those of where I have pointed out that your views clearly are at odds with the bible, especially the very words of Jesus who you say guided you.
I did focus, both this time and the time before. You assume that your understanding of what my Lord said to the man hung next to him is correct. It is not. You believe in the placement of a comma that did not exist and on that based your entire understanding. However, when I asked you HOW such a man could get IN... BEFORE a place had been prepared... BEFORE my Lord returned to ESCORT him... as he promised to do with those whom he CHOSE... you did not respond. Not even an attempt. Nothing. Zippo. Zilch. Nada.
As I pointed out, either this contradiction needs to be resolved or indeed we can discount your own revelations of Jesus in favour of those in the bible.
I think it's been resolved. Whether you accept that resolution or not... is on you and remains to be seen.
I really am not here to pick an argument.
Of course not! Nor am I!
However, I am here to point out where your vision, or at least your interpretation of the vision contradicts scripture and indeed, where your understanding seems to be compatible with that of the WT.
Well, there are going to be SOME things that they say that are true. For example, my that Lord is not part of a Trinity. That is TRUE. And I cannot deny that truth. Indeed, there is SOME truth in EVERY religion. Otherwise, humans would NOT take part in them! It is because of their thirst FOR truth that they GO to such institutions. Indeed, Satan "keeps transforming himself into an angel... of LIGHT." But he is NOT that Light... nor do they [religions] have truth... for he IS that Truth. John 14:6; John 8:12
Am I safe to assume that you believe the WT to be false prophets and teachers?
You absolutely are! Indeed, they are the MOST reprehensible of ALL of the false prophets, false christs (anointed), and false teachers that have come before them! Because they are the ONLY one among those who teach that there are some who should NOT eat the manna! NOT partake of my Lord's flesh! Not eat... FROM THE TREE OF LIFE! And yet, ALL who left Egypt, Israel AND the vast mixed company that went with them... ate the manna and drank from the rock-mass! ALL who sought the Christ during the first century and up until the 19 th century ATE from the Tree of Life... and DRANK from the rock-mass that is Christ! 1 Cor. 10:1-4.
In this, these "shut up the kingdom of the heavens" more than ANY others!
Let us keep these in mind 2 Peter 2:1 1 Timothy 6:3-4 James 3:1
Absolutely, dear Stephen, let's do! Indeed, this is something I take VERY seriously. Indeed, MY eternal life... whether as a king/priest in the kingdom... or even merely a subject... is at stake. I do not seek any glory for myself... of any kind. I hear what I hear, as a result of the GIFT that was given me BY my Lord:
"4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all. 5 There are different kinds of service, but we serve the same Lord. 6 God works in different ways, but it is the same God who does the work in all of us. 7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge. 9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing. 10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have. 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
It was not until I read this that I fully understood what was occurring with me. I have put faith in it, however, dear Stephen... and gone from there.
Again, I bid you the greatest of love and peace!
Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and ALL those who go with... and slave of Christ,
SA
