You Know a Spiritual Coward
: It is an easy thing to belittle a man when you know that the great majority will endorse your view whether it is true or not.
That's true, but I have not called You Know a spiritual coward simply on the basis of his current abysmally cowardly performance, but because I've observed him for more than four years do exactly the same thing. When the going gets tough, YK either gets going or he ignores everything that disproves his claims.
How long have you been on this board? A day? A week? What do you know of You Know?
: Whether or not I agree with what You Know has to say I think his willingness to support his beliefs on a board such as this has nothing of cowardice about it.
YK's willingness to support his beliefs goes only so far. The fact that he blusters a lot does nothing to dispell charges of cowardice. Puffer fish puff themselves up similarly, but are also cowards in the animal kingdom. The fact that YK runs away is proof enough. Furthermore, when you carefully analyze his responses, you find that more often than not they consist of pure ad hominems -- another sign of cowardice. Unless you've been on the board awhile you'll not have seen this.
: As regards the information you presented I would just comment on your reference to Fred Franz's cross-examination in the Olin Moyle court case of 1943. This has often been used to support the accusation that JW believe the WT is inspired in the biblical sense but the quotation is selective and Franz goes on to make quite clear that is not what he is claiming. The WT is often accused of selective quotation. Beware the beam in your own eye, brother.
There is no beam in my eye. The Moyle quotation accurately represents what Fred Franz meant. If you disagree, then by all means present the overall context and prove your claim that my quote is selective. If you can't, then you'll demonstrate that you're as cowardly as You Know, because you'll have made an accusation that you know you can't back up.
I'll wager that you've never even read the Moyle transcript. All you know is that you've read claims from JWs that this and other criticisms are somehow "selective", but you haven't checked them out. Isn't that right?
So, Earnest, are you ready to stand behind your charges?
: ... somewhere along the way russell/the watchtower made a decision to move over from merley bible students publishing thier findings to WE ARE THE ONLY CHANNEL TO GOD ON EARTH FOR MANKIND and from that day down till tonight is where they made and continue to make their biggest mistake
That's right. The interesting thing is that Russell thought this from the very beginning of publishing Zion's Watch Tower. You can find any number of statements in literature from the Russell period that proves that this was his thought from the beginning, that God literally gave him a "key" that he gave to no one else, so that he was God's greatest living mouthpiece. His followers merely followed suit. When Russell broke with Nelson Barbour over a minor matter of a subtle interpretation about the ransom doctrine, he took with him Barbour's list of subscribers to Herald of the Morning and began mailing them his new magazine. His intent was obviously to gain followers even at the cost of unethically taking his former partner's subscribers.
Yes Earnest, I am waiting too, looking forward to full, in context transcripts. Ive read vastly in Jehovahs Witness material and no disagreements are resolved with selective quotation. Unfortunately "Apostates" are, for the sake of brevity, forced to resort to SQ because of the slippery verbosity of Watchtower material.
One must read and entire 6 page article, getting a feel for the guts of what it is saying, in order to get a full handle on the depth of
the slippery, deceptive reasoning. A full idea or concept may be spread over numerous paragraphs, diffusing it, so that it registers only in the unconscious. There is no substitute for extensive ,in context reading of vast swathes of WT historical material. Have you done yours?
Really? If you have read it all in detail and context I might wonder why, as last time I spoke with an elder he discouraged reading Historical JW material because it contained "Satanic Ideas".He doubtless, was thinking in terms of material published prior to 1919.
But tell us all why such material,comprising some 40 years of WT history, is now off limits. The reason is simple, what was written in those days laid a foundation for all the twists and turns of doctrine that followed afer Jehovah "purified" his organization post the "captivity".All the material from the entire Russell era had to be systematically dismantled, piece by piece, and refuted.
Why? because the passage of time proved Russell to be completely in error in his expectationist claims.
I have two things to say..AlanF,you are an intellegent person,You are truthful and you are not a spiritual or intelectual bully!You are a blessing to this board...>>>You Know,You are nothing like AlanF.You are arrogent,you are a bullshit artist,you have no knowlege of things (like 1975 bullshit era) I have lived through,yet you act like an expert.LIAR!Hang your head dipshit,there are real dubs on this board.(Regardless of status!)Every time you bully or bullshit we will be there to pick you apart,you are easy meat..LIVE WITH IT!...OUTLAW
Here's another WT article where the Society calls itself a prophet:
WT June 1, 1935 pg. 172
"Jehovah is the teacher of his own children, and never again shall their Teacher be pushed into a corner. To carry out his purpose Jehovah sent his beloved Son, Christ Jesus, to the temple in 1918, and caused his prophet, now the remnant, to proclaim: 'But Jehovah is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.'"
The same paragraph continues (I had to quote this little gem-I know it has nothing to do with this thread (sorry)it was just too interesting-in light of the UN scandal)
"Any attempt to make the League of Nations, which is the abomination that maketh desolate, stand in the holy place is an open and flagrant defiance of Jehovah. The temple of Jehovah cannot be defiled, because there is nothing in common between his faithful temple class and the creature of the Devil and his organization. No one who understands God's Word, and loves and serves him, can give support to the League of Nations, because the thing is an abomination in the sight of Jehovah."
But the article does continue..."For this reason Jehovah and Christ do the teaching of God's people. The dumb idol cannot teach anything."
The dumb idol is referring to the League of Nations
I like your new hat. This is only the second YouKnow thread I have bothered opening in over a year. Thoroughly good read. Thankyou. I think you've used a sledge hammer to squash a cracked and shrivelled nut but a damned good read all the same.
I can get you one of those hats if you're willing to pay me enough.
I'm glad to see you have a serious side. I was getting worried.
Actually this post is something of an experiment. I'm wondering how long YK will disappear before our favorite spitting garter snake rears its little head again. If it rears up tomorrow, the venom spray will be entertaining at the very least.
Those who have watched You Know's online antics for awhile know that he usually acts like he knows everything, even more than the Governing Body.
Let me reiterate: The Governing Body of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York is not the master of my faith. I respect them as fathers and older men who have served my God for more years than I have lived, but they by no means set the limits of my faith in God and my knowledge of the Scriptures. Although I would never make such an immodest boast, yet from the standpoint of the inspired prayers in Psalms, which pre-recorded prayers actually proceed from the spirit of Jehovah’s anointed servants at a much later time, such a thing is not offensive to Jehovah. Psalms 119:99-100 says to God: “More insight than all my teachers I have come to have, because your reminders are a concern to me. With more understanding than older men I behave, because I observe your own orders.” No doubt the thing that infuriates you the most is when you go to such lengths to dredge up some Watchtower error and I say “yeah that’s not right I already knew that, so what?” Actually, what obviously infruiates you the most is when I simply ignore you.
They also know that You Know is in reality a spiritual coward, a loudmouthed buffoon who runs away when presented with incontrovertible proof that his worldview is as crooked as a Watchtower lawyer.The truth is that I have had countless long-running debates with you and literally hundreds of other opponents of the Watchtower. Your problem seems to be that you take yourself and your ideas very seriously and you expect me to do the same and you become indignant if I don’t always respond to you. The situation is that there are usually dozens of posters on any given thread of mine that are all demanding to get a piece of me. There simply aren’t enough hours in the day for me to wade through all the posts, let alone respond to everyone. Fact is though, that just recently a poster was whining that I never responded to him but I always responded to AlanF. For me it’s like dealing with a room full of crying babies; it’s just an impossible situation. While at times I actually enjoy reading your posts and sparing with you, and you have to admit that we have had some great debates over the years, on the recent round I have to admit that I only briefly skimmed over your last few posts because they were so long and it just ain’t worth it for me. But since you have made it such a personal thing by attacking me this way, well, male ego being what it is….
By the way, I really have no interest in your personal affairs, but since you insist on getting personal, I must say that it is obvious to me that you are suffering some pretty serious mental and emotional problems that you blame on the religion of your parents. Your rage against all things Watchtower can’t be healthy. Spending so much of your life trying to convince others to leave your former religion seems like a futile and childish way of avenging yourself upon the religion that you imagine screwed up your family. Have you ever thought about getting some professional counseling to help you sort out some of the bottled up feelings you have due to apparently growing up in a dysfunctional family that just so happened to be Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Okay, now, enough about you:
In several posts YK has been presented with solid proof that Watchtower leaders have claimed direct inspiration. They've claimed that they receive special information from angels, Jesus or Jehovah that is given to no one else.Actually, I did address this already in my pointing out that having angelic guidance, or the guidance of God’s holy spirit is not the same as being inspired with extra-biblical information. It all comes down to how you repackage this sort of thing.
Today their false teachings and prophecies are so well known that they no longer make such direct claims of inspiration, but they still make strong suggestions that they are. They back that up by declaring that anyone who disagrees with them is wicked.That’s not true. As I already pointed out, most Witnesses that go to the point of publicly disagreeing with the Watchtower are disfellowshipped because they challenge the God-given authority of Christ’s faithful slave. Merely having authority over God’s people is not the same as being inspired to utter God’s thoughts.
You Know demanded proof from Watchtower publications that Watchtower leaders have published things that they suggested at the time were directly inspired. Here are a couple of examples, along with a few more general statements that JW leaders are inspired.This is pretty pathetic Alan. For decades the Watchtower ran the sub caption quoting Isaiah 43:10-12 that says “You are my witnesses,” says Jehovah.”’ You are claiming that the Watchtower is claiming that God inspired them to come up with the name of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But, the question is: Why would God need to inspire someone with what was otherwise unknowable knowledge if such knowledge was already attainable in his Bible? What you are trying to confuse is the difference between being guided by God’s spirit to come to certain conclusions based upon his word and being inspired with direct information from Jehovah that no one else has access to by any other means. The later is the type of OT prophet that was described in the Law.
God inspired Rutherford to come up with the name "Jehovah's Witnesses"
As regards our coming to the Scriptural realization of the name of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a similar thing occurred in the 1st century when the followers of Christ were originally called Christians. The account at Acts 11:26 says that "It was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.” By divine providence does not necessarily mean that Jehovah directly told the apostles that that was what he wanted them to be called. The reason we can say that is because Isaiah the 60th chapter, which refers to God anointing Jesus, also uses the plural for many such anointed priests of God. Since the Hebrew word for anointed if messiah and the Greek word is christo, those who are anointed followers of Christ Jesus are also christs or the derivative---Christians. Since that name could be derived from prophecy it was not necessary that God reveal the name Christian to them. God merely guided them to that conclusion based upon Scripture so that God’s will was imposed, what the Scripture calls divine providence.
Since the name of Jehovah’s Witnesses is undisputedly also bound in prophecy related to Jehovah’s anointed ones, it is altogether proper to say with equal conviction that divine providence was involved in our taking to ourselves the name of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
If this is true about Rutherford's getting the idea for the name "Jehovah's witnesses", and "the Lord guided him in that", then it is obvious that "the Lord" put information into Rutherford's head that would not have gotten there otherwise.Except of course by reading the Bible. LOL
1925 prediction was divinely revealed … Since Noah's knowledge of a coming deluge came not from reading a book, but by direct inspiration from God, if now the Christian "has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had" in the coming of Armageddon in 1925, then it follows that the predictions for 1925 must have been inspired,That’s nonsense. The quote you dug up said, Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures, Therefore, it is obvious that even though their chronology was wrong, that is was based upon an interpretation of Scripture, albeit a faulty one, whatever that was. So in reality, the strong assertions made by Rutherford at the time seem to me to be a statement affirming his conviction in the inspiration of the Bible and not his own.
Jehovah is the Editor of The WatchtowerAgain, you are only pretending to have answered my challenge. I asked for something from the Watchtower that claims to have been directly given to us by the same process of inspiration. Franz’s claiming that Jehovah is the editor of the Watchtower is merely a way of saying that he believed the Watchtower had God’s backing. The conviction is entirely in keeping with the fact that Jesus is the head of his body of anointed disciples. And while not inspiring them as in the manner of the prophets and apostles of old, Jesus’ designated position in Scripture as the head of his congregation means that he is involved in the affairs of his faithful slave as he goes about his business.
God revealed the 1914 chronology to RussellNo. It is a direct claim of being guided by God’s holy spirit. Is this really the sort of child’s cheap card trick that I supposedly can’t handle? LOL
No indeed, the organization is actively and purposefully and right now "directed by God's holy spirit or active force." That is a direct claim of direct inspiration.
Here we find plain statements that no one besides the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses can understand the Bible. Why? Because holy spirit has revealed to them and them alone what the Bible means.That statement is self-evidently true; but again, where’s the inspired prophecy you claimed to have found?
Direction by God's spirit enables Jehovah's servants to have divine light in a world of spiritual darkness. Only God by his holy spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible students so far in advance.
Here again we find an unequivocal claim of direct, divine inspiration. Only by God revealing this information about 1914 to C. T. Russell and company could they hope to understand the Bible. Indeed, there is no way they could have understood it on their own, but only by means of God's insertion into their minds of the correct understanding.Yawn….Crediting God for guidance to arrive at understanding his concealed matters is not the same as claiming to receive direct info from God.
The Bible book of Daniel provides an interesting proof from their own mouths that Jehovah's Witnesses are led by men who falsely claim divinely revealed knowledge. The 12th chapter speaks of "a time of distress" that Daniel also calls "the time of the end". During this time, amazing things will happen, including a complete revelation of understanding of the book of Daniel itself. Here is what Daniel 12:3-4, 8-10 says about this: The Society claims that we have been living in "the time of the end" since 1914. If that is so, and we are virtually at the end of that time period, as the Society so strongly teaches, then by now "the ones having insight" who will understand everything written in Daniel should have made an appearance. Indeed, for many decades JW leaders have been claiming precisely that, and that they themselves are the foretold "ones having insight".Actually, I have written a few hundred pages to the Watchtower regarding the period of the “time of the end.” But if I explained it to you I would be guilty of violating Jesus’ principle of not giving what is holy to the dogs. Let it suffice to say that there is a reasonable and wholly satisfying explanation to the paradox that will be evident when the prophecy is fully unsealed. The point is: Jehovah has absolute control over his own prophetic utterances. Even though his servants may earnestly desire to know his sacred secrets, unless it is Jehovah’s time to unlock his enigmatic treasury to them, they will be ignorant without themselves being quite aware of it. As I have often pointed out, it suits Jehovah’s purpose to conceal things from his own servants. That was certainly the case with the apostles. Luke 9:45 says that the apostles were prevented from understanding what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of his death. And yet the apostles were quite certain that they had it all figured out. Peter even went so far as to counsel Jesus, as if the Son of God didn’t know what he was talking about when he spoke of his being put to death. What an embarrassment for the apostle Peter! But, just because God concealed that from them for a time did not mean that they didn’t have God’s favor. Jeremiah even protested that Jehovah had fooled him by apparently allowing him to draw erroneous conclusions. So,
Will You Know prove himself not a coward and straightforwardly and honestly deal with the fact that his spiritual leaders are false teachers and false prophets? If experience is any guide, of course not.You are the one doing all the blustering, not me. If I say that I know the Watchtower is in error, you will be happy, because you assume that that will be the end of my faith as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as has been the case of many who have been injected with the faith-destroying, Watchtower fault-finding, viral strain of apostasy. But, if I say that I know they are in error and that I also know how such errors suit God’s purpose, and how they will be addressed and corrected in the future according to the sacred treasures of God held in reserve, then I am ridiculed as one who thinks they know more the Watchtower. So, that’s really how your con game operates, except it doesn’t work on me. Here’s why:
I well know that because you were once a follower of men, as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in name only, having a mere religion and not a true faith in God, that you imagine that I am one such follower of men too. So in your ignorance and presumption, you imagine that my faith in Jehovah is wholly predicated on what the Watchtower does or doesn’t do. Your aim is to get me to distrust men who have been prominent Watchtower officials because you imagine that my faith depends upon them. Because you personally do not know God and have never had any sort of spiritual connection to him, your only association with Jehovah was through your affiliation with the Watchtower. However, that is not my situation at all. Jehovah is my personal God. He is my spiritual Father in a way that you have never experienced. Those of us who actually have a birth from God know that our relationship with Jehovah and Christ did not originate through the Watchtower and is not dependent upon the Watchtower Society. The Watchtower is only a periphery agency and is not the determining factor in our spiritual lives. I am, after all, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and not a Watchtowerite as some men are. Of course, the Watchtower is a much lower target for you than Jehovah himself, and since you are unable to assail Him, for that reason there is no amount of dredged up Watchtower skullduggery that can shake my faith in Jehovah and his purposes in connection with his Witnesses. / You Know
this has got to be the best post i have seen you write and to the Archieves it goes-
for it truly highlights your great twisting and turning as you atempt with all your might to make the Goofy stuff that the wt has taught over all these years sound reasonable-
what makes it kinda sad is your explanations are excellent and would in my opinion be right on the money in many cases= problm is the claims of the WT are in print
yep thier paper trail -regardless of how much jw like you wish and try to change it will always remain the same
if they had any idea that so much of thier goofy writings would have come back to bite them in the butt they probably would have never published that stuff
As Alan predicted, YK's attempt at obviation and appology, was in fact very entertaining.
In other words Alan was a true prophet.
Like JT said, YK, that was one of your better attempts at defense of the tower. But you failed to address one simple fact.
Even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume your allegence is to Jehovah, not to men, how do explain the fact that if any of the elder's got ahold of your above expression's, you would sumarily be sitting in the library, explaining these words;
*** for that reason there is no amount of dredged up Watchtower skullduggery that can shake my faith in Jehovah and his purposes in connection with his Witnesses. / You Know***
Arnt you really missing the point here You Know? Is it not Jehovah who must be beseeched to overlook the 'skullduggery' of the WTBS?
Oh its simply grand that you YK can look past all the wickedness, all the duplicity, your really a true pragmatist, good for you.
If you meant any word about being in a personal relationship with Jehovah. Should you not be more concerned about his view of the WTBS?
I think it is the only thing that matter's.
Your now all to willing to ascribe blame to his earthly organization, for thier mistakes, but unwilling to make the leap, that your personal god, may in fact, have never had one little thing to do with this 'skullduggery'.
"Jehovah has established a very definite channel of communication through which he deals with his people..It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision."
"But if each of us were left to himself just because he has a copy of the Bible and were to direct his movements independently as he though he understood the Word, what? It is likely, or possible, that there would be a great deal of confusion or working in competition among us. Hence, besides individually possessing God's Word, we need a theocratic organization, Yes, besides having God's spirit of illumination, a Christian needs Jehovah's theocratic organization in order to understand the Bible
"But God has not arranged for that Word to speak independently or to shine forth life-giving truths by itself. His Word says: 'Light is sown for the righteous.' It is through his organization that God provides this light that the proverb says is the teaching or law of the mother. If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother..The finest spiritual food is supplied through Jehovah's organization." may1/57pg274
If you are a Catholic, can you understand how a practice that was considered by the Church a 'mortal sin' can suddenly be approved? If it was a sin five years ago, why is it not today?".. The change in teaching has shaken their confidence in the church. Would you not feel the same way if what you had always been taught to be vital for salvation was suddenly considered unnecessary? Would you not be inclined to question other teachings of your church also?"
Theocratic ones will appreciate the Lord's visible organization and not be so foolish as to pit against Jehovah's channel their own human reasoning and sentiment and personal feelings. After being nourished to our present spiritual strength and maturity, do we suddenly become smarter than our former provider and forsake the enlightening guidance of the organization that mothers us?WTFeb1/52pg79-80