You Know a Spiritual Coward
Those who have watched You Know's online antics for awhile know that he usually acts like he knows everything, even more than the Governing Body. He's an expert in bigtime bluster. They also know that You Know is in reality a spiritual coward, a loudmouthed buffoon who runs away when presented with incontrovertible proof that his worldview is as crooked as a Watchtower lawyer.
In several posts YK has been presented with solid proof that Watchtower leaders have claimed direct inspiration. They've claimed that they receive special information from angels, Jesus or Jehovah that is given to no one else. Today their false teachings and prophecies are so well known that they no longer make such direct claims of inspiration, but they still make strong suggestions that they are. They back that up by declaring that anyone who disagrees with them is wicked.
The following material is adapted from a post I made a couple of days ago, which You Know ran away from:
You Know demanded proof from Watchtower publications that Watchtower leaders have published things that they suggested at the time were directly inspired. Here are a couple of examples, along with a few more general statements that JW leaders are inspired.
God inspired Rutherford to come up with the name "Jehovah's Witnesses"
The Society has published anecdotes that attempt to show direct guidance by God of the actions of certain of its members. The 1975 Yearbook described how Jehovah’s Witnesses got their name, and related this story on pages 150-1:
When he was eighty-eight years old A. H. Macmillan attended the "Fruitage of the Spirit" Assembly of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the same city [Columbus, Ohio]. There, on August 1, 1964, Brother Macmillan made these interesting comments on how the adopting of that name came about:If this is true about Rutherford's getting the idea for the name "Jehovah's witnesses", and "the Lord guided him in that", then it is obvious that "the Lord" put information into Rutherford's head that would not have gotten there otherwise. This is a direct claim by Macmillan that he believed that Rutherford was inspired to come up with the name. Note that this anecdote was published by the Society for a purpose. What purpose? Obviously to suggest that Jehovah God had a direct hand in naming "his organization". Therefore we find that the Society here is suggesting that the JW community believe that Rutherford was inspired to come up with that name.
"It was my privilege to be here in Columbus in 1931 when we received . . . the new title or name . . . I was amongst the five that were to make a comment on what we thought about the idea of accepting that name, and I told them this briefly: I thought that it was a splendid idea because that title there told the world what we were doing and what our business was. Prior to this we were called Bible Students. Why? Because that’s what we were. And then when other nations began to study with us, we were called International Bible Students. But now we are witnesses for Jehovah God, and that title there tells the public just what we are and what we’re doing. . .
"In fact, it was God Almighty, I believe, that led to that, for Brother Rutherford told me himself that he woke up one night when he was preparing for that convention and he said, ‘What in the world did I suggest an international convention for when I have no special speech or message for them? Why bring them all here?’ And then he began to think about it, and Isaiah 43 came to his mind. He got up at two o’clock in the morning and wrote in shorthand, at his own desk, an outline of the discourse he was going to give about the Kingdom, the hope of the world, and about the new name. And all that was uttered by him at that time was prepared that night, or that morning at two o’clock. And [there is] no doubt in my mind -- not then nor now -- that the Lord guided him in that, and that is the name Jehovah wants us to bear and we’re very happy and very glad to have it."
1925 prediction was divinely revealed
The Watch Tower, April 1, 1923, said on page 106, in the "Question and Answer" section:
Question: Did the order go forth eight months ago to the Pilgrims to cease talking about 1925? Have we more reason, or as much, to believe the kingdom will be established in 1925 than Noah had to believe that there would be a flood?Since Noah's knowledge of a coming deluge came not from reading a book, but by direct inspiration from God, if now the Christian "has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had" in the coming of Armageddon in 1925, then it follows that the predictions for 1925 must have been inspired, because you cannot get more sure about a coming event than by being informed about it by inspiration. Therefore The Watch Tower here is indirectly claiming direct inspiration about the 1925 date.
Answer: ... There was never at any time any intimation to the Pilgrim brethren that they should cease talking about 1925... Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures, marking the end of the typical jubilees. Just exactly what will happen at that time no one can tell to a certainty; but we expect such a climax in the affairs of the world that the people will begin to realize the presence of the Lord and his kingdom power. He is already present, as we know, and has taken unto himself his power and begun his reign. He has come to his temple. He is dashing to pieces the nations. Every Christian ought to be content, then, to do with his might what his hands find to do, without stopping to quibble about what is going to happen on a certain date.
As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge.
Jehovah is the Editor of The Watchtower
Here is another unequivocal example of a claim of direct inspiration: In the Olin Moyle court case of 1943, Fred Franz said under oath that no man is the editor of The Watchtower. Who, then, is the editor?
Q. Who subsequently became the Editor of the magazine, the main editor of the "Watch Tower" magazine?In case the reader should object that this was only Franz’s opinion and therefore of little weight, it should be noted that in 1943, Franz was for all practical purposes himself the editor of The Watchtower. He was in practical terms the head theologian of the Watchtower Society, and Nathan Knorr generally rubber stamped his writings. Governing Body member Karl Klein often called Franz the "oracle of the organization." When this "oracle" testified before a "worldly" court that Jehovah is the sole editor of The Watchtower, he did so in his capacity as an authoritative spokesman for the Watchtower Society, and so his pronouncements must be regarded as an official policy statement.
A. In 1931, October 15th, as I recall, the "Watch Tower" discontinued publishing the names of any editorial committee on the second page.
The Court. He asked you who became the editor.
The Witness. And it said --
The Court. Who became the editor?
Q. Who became the editor when this was discontinued?
A. Jehovah God.
Of course, a sole editor cannot be a mere figurehead. He must have direct input to the material edited. Thus Franz was claiming that no man -- not even he himself -- had the final say as to what appeared in The Watchtower, but only Jehovah God did. Thus Franz made a direct claim that The Watchtower is inspired in everything that appears in it.
God revealed the 1914 chronology to Russell
Next we may consider some statements that appeared in the July 1, 1973 Watchtower on page 402:
4 Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6)
Note that the claim is not made that "Jehovah's organization" simply has men in it who read the Bible and come to a personal understanding and then communicate this to the rest of the organization, so that the "direction" is a passive thing already set down in the Bible. No indeed, the organization is actively and purposefully and right now "directed by God's holy spirit or active force." That is a direct claim of direct inspiration.
Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. Many persons of the world are very intelligent, capable of understanding complex matters. They can read the Holy Scriptures, but they cannot understand their deep meaning. Yet God's people can comprehend such spiritual things. Why? Not because of special intelligence on their part, but as the apostle Paul declared: "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." (1 Cor. 2:10) Jesus Christ praised his heavenly Father for 'hiding such things from the wise and intellectual ones but revealing them to babes.' (Matt. 11:25) How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the "deep things of God"!
Here we find plain statements that no one besides the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses can understand the Bible. Why? Because holy spirit has revealed to them and them alone what the Bible means. Since the Bible is a static document set in stone by about 1600 years ago, the Watchtower statement certainly is not talking about a mere coming to a personal understanding of the Bible, but about understanding special things hidden in the Bible, not by one's own power of understanding, but by direct action of the holy spirit on the minds of JW leaders, where the holy spirit inserts the 'correct' understanding into the minds of these men. This is a direct claim of plenary inspiration, such that everything written in Watchtower publications is claimed to have God's stamp of approval and is inspired.
5 Direction by God's spirit enables Jehovah's servants to have divine light in a world of spiritual darkness. (2 Cor. 4:4) For instance, long ago they understood that 1914 C.E. would mark the end of the Gentile Times or "appointed times of the nations," during which the Gentile nations were allowed uninterrupted rulership of the earth. (Luke 21:24) This 2,520-year period began with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the Babylonians in the late seventh century B.C.E. For example, Zion's Watch Tower of March 1880 had declared: "'The Times of the Gentiles' extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then." Only God by his holy spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible students so far in advance.
Here again we find an unequivocal claim of direct, divine inspiration. Only by God revealing this information about 1914 to C. T. Russell and company could they hope to understand the Bible. Indeed, there is no way they could have understood it on their own, but only by means of God's insertion into their minds of the correct understanding. And just as Rutherford stated in the book Preparation, this "revealing" was done by means of God's messengers, or angels, and so it is simply another way of claiming direct inspiration.
Ironically, the above claim about 1914 has proved to be quite misleading. Various "apostate" publications, especially the 1983 version of Carl Jonsson's The Gentile Times Reconsidered, pointed out that Russell himself did not 'discover' the 1914 chronology. So in the 1993 Proclaimers book the Society was forced to admit that it was Nelson Barbour who actually originated this nonsensical set of ideas. So if the claims in the 1973 Watchtower are basically true, we must conclude that Nelson Barbour was actually the one to whom holy spirit revealed the wonderful truths about 1914.
Prophecy of Daniel
The Bible book of Daniel provides an interesting proof from their own mouths that Jehovah's Witnesses are led by men who falsely claim divinely revealed knowledge. The 12th chapter speaks of "a time of distress" that Daniel also calls "the time of the end". During this time, amazing things will happen, including a complete revelation of understanding of the book of Daniel itself. Here is what Daniel 12:3-4, 8-10 says about this:
3 "And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.
4 "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: "O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?"
9 And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.
The Society claims that we have been living in "the time of the end" since 1914. If that is so, and we are virtually at the end of that time period, as the Society so strongly teaches, then by now "the ones having insight" who will understand everything written in Daniel should have made an appearance. Indeed, for many decades JW leaders have been claiming precisely that, and that they themselves are the foretold "ones having insight". Note how they describe themselves and their understanding of the book of Daniel, in the July 1, 1987 Watchtower, page 25:
... the understanding of it has been opened up primarily during "the time of the end," particularly since 1919. In these days, "many . . . rove about" in the Bible, and true knowledge has indeed become abundant. Now is the time that Jehovah has given knowledge to understanding ones...19 Stay close, then, to "the ones having insight," who are 'shining like the brightness of the expanse.'
But are JW leaders what they claim? Do they really understand what is written in the book of Daniel? Or do they fail to understand in this "time of the end", so that they are among the "wicked ones", all of whom fail to understand? What does the record show? Let's carefully examine it:
In a vein similar to the above, the 1958 book Your Will Be Done on Earth said of JW leaders:
To us in this "time of the end" Daniel's book has been opened and unsealed (p. 328; see also Apr. 1, 1960 Watchtower, p. 222).Only the Scripturally intelligent ones will be allowed to understand the book of Daniel and all the rest of the Bible (p. 333; see also Apr. 15, 1960 Watchtower, p. 250).
Clearly, any who do not understand the book of Daniel are 'scripturally unintelligent' and any who falsely claim such understanding are false teachers.
The May 15, 1969 Watchtower put it all together, saying that the book of Daniel "has been opened up":
The prophet Daniel foretold the momentous times in which we are now living... The angel told him that the fulfillment was a secret and sealed up until the "time of the end," and that is exactly where we are now. How thrilled Daniel would be if he could be alive today as his book of prophecy is opened up to human understanding! Oh, how he would rejoice and delight to reach this time in history for the climax of his prophetic words! So we should take great delight in examining Daniel's words for our day, feeling especially privileged to understand what Daniel himself could not discern (p. 296).Some of Jehovah's servants might discuss with him [Daniel] the contents of the book "Your Will Be Done on Earth," which volume contains a detailed discussion of many of Daniel's prophecies. He will be very interested in learning how his wonderful prophecies worked out, to God's glory. We will be interested in his reactions and rejoice with him in his lot (p. 308).Yes, the angel associate of Michael pointed out a great work for the true followers of the Messianic Prince Michael in this "time of the end." Here is the prophecy: "The ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever." (Dan. 12:3) Here, then, is foretold the work for us today. Spiritually intelligent ones must shine with heavenly light. With the good news of the newborn kingdom of God, Jehovah's witnesses have shone like the sun, which lets nothing be concealed from its heat all around the globe. In the midnight darkness of this world we must be like stars of light, to help many more of the "other sheep" turn to righteousness, which is the worship and ministry of the grand God, Jehovah. Living as we do in this "time of the end" since Michael the Great Prince stood up in heaven, we are living in a time more highly favored than that of Daniel. Daniel's book has been opened up. Blessed are those who act in harmony with Daniel's words for our day!
The 1977 book Our Incoming World Government -- God's Kingdom said:
We are living in a favored time... the "time of the end." It is the time for increased spiritual enlightenment, for much of the unexplained prophecies of the Holy Bible, including Daniel's prophecy, to be opened up to our minds and hearts. Ours is the time to which the angel pointed forward when he said to Daniel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant." -- Daniel 12:4. (p. 125)Daniel "could not understand" what he heard, in his day. But we, in this day, in this "time of the end" since 1914, can understand. (p. 132)
Does the Watchtower Society truly understand what the book of Daniel says about our time period, which it says is the time of the end? In a series of articles covering the prophecies of Daniel 11 and 12, the July 1, 1987, Watchtower said, on page 11:
Many years ago, Jehovah revealed the historical development of events that would lead up to his bringing peace to the earth. Through an angel, he spoke to his faithful prophet Daniel about "the final part of the days," our own time. (Daniel 10:4) He foretold today's superpower rivalry and showed that it will soon end in a way that neither power suspects...
The articles then speak about some of the the fulfillments of Daniel 11, referring the interested reader to Your Will Be Done on Earth. In particular, the articles discuss the activities of the "king of the north" and the "king of the south." In 1987 these were supposed to be, respectively, the "mostly socialistic bloc of nations" and the "largely capitalistic bloc" (p. 13).
The description applied to the socialistic bloc sounded very striking in 1987 (pp. 13-4):
The disposition of the latest king of the north is well described in verses 37, 38 [of Dan. 11]: "And to the God of his fathers he will give no consideration . . . But to the god of fortresses, in his position he will give glory; and to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and by means of silver and by means of precious stone and by means of desirable things." Can anyone fail to recognize this description? Todays king of the north officially promotes atheism, rejecting the religious gods of previous kings of the north. He prefers to trust in armaments, "the god of fortresses."...So what finally happens between these two kings? The angel says: "And in the time of the end [the end of the history of the two kings] the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships." (Daniel 11:40; Matthew 24:3) Clearly, summit conferences are no solution to the superpower rivalry. The tensions caused by the `pushing' of the king of the south and the expansionism of the king of the north may go through more or less intense phases; but eventually, in some way, the king of the north will be provoked into the excessively violent action described by Daniel.
These words sounded especially ominous in 1987, in view of the Watchtower Society's expectation that the end of everything would come by the end of the 20th century.
The article then refers the reader to "light" from Your Will Be Done on Earth, pages 298-303. Here are some examples of what the Society predicted in that book. How do these things fit in with the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses, along with most other religions, in the early 1990s experienced a tremendous expansion in the former Soviet Union and its allies, because of the legalizing of religion?
This persecution (by the king of the north against true Christians) is foretold to continue until the king of the north comes to his "time of the end" at Armageddon (p. 286). ... the king of the south and the king of the north stand at Armageddon... In the confused fighting between the "two kings" as crazed enemies of Jehovah God and his kingdom, the "kings" will have opportunity and occasion to try out and use their frightful, deadly weapons of all kinds against each other. (p. 297) ... now at God's appointed time for the Armageddon fight the king of the north sets out to destroy the "beauteous land" (spiritual relation of the `anointed' class to Jehovah) to wipe it off the earth... This becomes the time for Jehovah to begin the war of his great day. (p. 298-9)Jehovah's angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end in Armageddon: "And he will stretch forth his hand against some countries, and the land of Egypt will not escape. And he will have control over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the costly things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians will follow at his steps."... How far the king of the north will have got when he reaches his "time of the end" the future alone will tell. But he is predicted to gain control over the treasures of gold, silver and all the precious things of this commercialized, materialistic world, including oil. (pp. 300, 303)
Clearly, the demise of the Soviet Union and most of its allies has put these predictions beyond possibility of fulfillment. Since the Watchtower Society cannot admit that the prophecies given in Daniel could be wrong, the failed prediction must lie in the interpretation the Society itself has given. But according to Dan. 12:3,4,10, "the ones having insight" would understand the prophecies that Daniel had been told to seal up, and would make them abundantly known. The book of Daniel itself clearly implies that the "ones having insight" cannot be wrong when they make "abundantly known" the interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel. Since the Watchtower Society's interpretations of Daniel are clearly in error, the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses are not the "ones having insight." But as they claim this designation, they must therefore be false teachers, and by their own standard of judgement, false prophets.
As The Watch Tower of May 15, 1930, pages 154-155, said:
... a true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what is written in the Bible . . . But it may be asked, How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet? There are at least three ways by which we can positively decide: (1) If he is a true prophet, his message will come to pass exactly as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will fail to come to pass... The difference between a true and a false prophet is that the one is speaking the word of the Lord and the other is speaking his own dreams and guesses... The true prophet of God today will be telling forth what the Bible teaches, and those things that the Bible tells us are soon to come to pass. He will not be sounding forth man-made theories or guesses, either his own or those of others... In the New Testament, and in our day, the word "prophet" has a thought similar to that of our word "teacher," in the sense of a public expounder. Hence when the term "false prophet" is used, we shall get the correct thought if we think of a false teacher.
Will You Know prove himself not a coward and straightforwardly and honestly deal with the fact that his spiritual leaders are false teachers and false prophets? If experience is any guide, of course not.
Who cares what YouKnow does or doesn't do, or if he debates you or anyone else? There is a lot of arrogance to go around here and why should anyone bother to read his posts in the first place? BTW, what various names do you use now to 'snipe away' without revealing your identity? That's an example of cowardice too, right Al baby?
But it wasnt the CHANNEL that said the first quote.
It was that poor gumbo scapegoat MacMillan.
The one with Freddie, well he only said that cause he was in a WORLDLY court.
Its okay to lie when your dealing with Babylon.
Thought I would say this before You Know did.
One of You Know's "arguments" is that the early Christians also had misconceptions and erroneous viewpoints. The argument goes that mistaken viewpoints can't make one a false prophet in the sense of Deut. 18 otherwise certain of the apostles would have been false prophets. In itself, that may be true - but the Society doesn't apply this more liberal standard to others.
Significantly, there is no evidence that the early Christians defined apostasy to be disagreeing with what ultimately turned out to mistaken viewpoints even though these views may have been held by some of the apostles. Contrast that with what the WTS does: it defines apostasy to be stubbornly holding to, and talking about, teachings (no matter how minor) that are different from "Bible truth as taught by JWs". This demonstrates that YK's argument in regard to the early Christians is nonsensical. Obviously the WT leaders believe that what they teach comes directly from God and cannot be doubted. They believe that their knowledge is superior to that available in the 1st century because God has revealed to them that the Kingdom has now been established. Put differently, when they - the GB - say something then there is no room for it being potentially wrong, even in minor aspects. It must be taken at face value as "revealed truth" i.e., as the Word of God - or face the consequences. Why else such a draconian definition of apostasy that focusses on disagreement, not with the Bible, but with the Society's interpretations (and embellishments) of the Bible. JW leaders make no distinction in enforcing their policy on apostasy between, say, disagreeing with the Society on the Trinity (which reasonable people could disagree about, but both sides have some degree of scriptural support) and the teaching that they are the "sole channel of communication with humanity" (which has no basis at all in the Bible, no matter how hard one looks).
Since a number of JW teachings have little or no Bible basis and since obviously the teaching must have come from somewhere, this amounts to claiming direct inspiration in the full sense of Deut. 18. That is the essential differece between JW leaders and the apostles in the 1st century - they consciously assume the role of Deut. 18 including the right to denounce those who disagree with "God's tru eprophet" to the point of hounding them out of the organization. Given the propensity for the WTS to act like a modern day version of ancient Israel it makes sense that they so often use Deut. 18 to condemn others and so, by default, assume the mantle of a true prophet. Not only do they claim to be inspired prophets they also act as if they were such.
My My Rex, what's got into you? Or are you just jealous that some nutcases on this board are more equal than others - and hence given more attention.
Excellent post Alan- to the Archieves
Rex Your post was excellent too- i just couldn't figure out what relationship it has to the issue under discussion- but hey it don't matter i guess- everyone is free to post here-
just a suggestion- you might want to stay on subject so folks will at least know that you are aware of what is being discussed
but that is my 2
here is a relevant quote from the "Finished Mystery" (1917)
Speaking about Russell on page 381:
..."He was eager to learn all he could about the heavenly Fathers will. It was not of himself that he learned and taught the divine plan, but God Himself caused him to learn, believe and teach"...
By the way, dont forget that the Apostles, if they did hold false understandings, are nowhere stated to have spread those false understandings, and held them before they were spititually annointed at Pentecost.
I will make an admission up front: I don't care for /You Know's online persona for one reason. He lies (misrepresents what I believe he knows is the truth) to others. As a result, after I figured him out, I've not engaged him in any serious attempt at dialog. Not once.
Other than that, I have the definite feeling that away from a pc screen where he can perpetuate this persona, the man can be an acceptable associate. I recall he once (I wish I could remember/find the thread) revealed ten things that he did in his youth that came to shape the way he is now. He mentioned something about hanging out at a railroad switching yard. And stealing a car (later returned) in order to see a girl. Without meaning to, he dropped his pathetic on-line persona and revealed his humanity. The /You Know we've all come to despise was stripped away and I was touched, I don't mind saying. Alas, that was the only time I cared for the man and have avoided him since.
I say all this to say that there is something within me that yearns to speak for the underdog, the little guy. When I saw that you had addressed him, calling him out, as it were, I thought I'd settle in with the hopes of finding a hole in your argument. My defense of YK follows:
So, there it is. Well done, Alan. Hope you have a nice evening.
this is why the net is so important for NONJW AND JW WHO USE "Critical thinking"
it is simply amazing how on one hand they want the respect-unquestioning aliegence that a "prophet" gets but none of the responisbilty that comes when you get the stuff wrong-
thier paper trail of writings is their worst enemy-
Even if all your excellent references can be challenged by the You Know's of the world. The simple fact remains, much like LPH said, the proof lies in thier policy of enforcement.
One must only make a direct and public pronouncement, that the WTBS view of may be error.
Goodbye former brother/sister you are now 'bird fodder', walking dead awaiting the final blows at God's hand..Armegeddon.
Would not be so bad for the individual so judged, but when disfellowshiped from the WTBS association, one loses all former family, friends, and social structure.
It is this one policy, that seals the argument, as to the fact that they indeed do consider thier own word's and interpretations, as prophetic and originating with God Almighty.
They cannot deny it, based upon that one henious policy of shunning.