Englishman, the "endangerment" concept was first set forth in a late-1980s Watchtower article. I'll look it up when I get home.
AlanF
To Danni: ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS
by You Know 78 Replies latest jw friends
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AlanF
Yadirf, if a group of men claims to speak for God, but promulgates false teachings such as banning blood transfusions, the 1914 doctrine, and so forth -- teachings that sometimes result in the death of someone -- then they are false teachers, which means they're false prophets, and they have bloodguilt for causing the deaths.
According to Proverbs, anyone declaring the righteous one wicked is detestable to God. JW leaders do exactly that by disfellowshipping people whose only 'crime' is to disagree publicly with some teaching.
Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult, not because they teach false things, but because of the way they go about enforcing their teachings. They deceive people in the first place, then hold over them the sword of disfellowshipping. They practice Orwellian doublethink to a degree that makes the Moonies look like pikers. Go look up the definition of "cult" anywhere you please, and then see if you can explain why JWs don't fit the most common definitions.
I'm glad to see that you understand that Daniel 11:35 applies before "the time of the end". But because JW leaders teach that we've been in "the time of the end" since 1914, they're teaching yet another falsehood in the name of God.
Just how many things does a religion have to get wrong before an intelligent person will realize that it has no more or less to do with God than any other? JWs apply one standard to others and another to themselves -- all so as to tell themselves that they're "the one true religion". If they applied the strict standard they apply to others to themselves, and were honest about the results, they'd immediately realize that they're very little different from religions that they regard as cults.
There is no evidence whatsoever that JW leaders were appointed by God or Christ to do anything, not in 1919 and not before. Their claim to have been specially appointed is yet another proof that they're a cult, since normal people don't do this.
AlanF
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JT
More seriously, given your comments, you have no choice but to acknowledge that the Society's ban on blood transfusions is not Scriptural.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------That is true. And there's several things about which the Society is mistaken about, yes things which are not exactly "Scriptural". Yet such doesn't mean that Jehovah's Witnesses are a false religion, or a cult. I think it must be admitted that the issue as to what is meant in the book of Acts regarding the command to "abstain" from blood is not particularly easy to understand
-----------------------This is such a powerful example of Double speak Double think
"Yep I know they ain't teaching stuff in the bible"
" but it don't make that teaching a false one"
you got to love jw who will hold on to anything to keep from saying they ain't got god's backing
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Yadirf
LPH
This is the final paragraph of the article that you provided a link to:
The intent of this article is to provide a basis for the Society to perform a thorough scriptural re-examination of the blood doctrine. As has been emphasized, the Society is willing to consider suggestions from individual Jehovah's Witnesses for change. This might best be achieved by writing to the Society expressing one's opinions on the blood policy and the material contained here, if the reader feels that it has validity. Should you write the Society with a suggestion for change? That question can and should only be answered by each person individually. http://www.jwbloodreview.org/Conclusion.html
In view of the text as found at Daniel 11:35 I find the authors words above very relevant, and therefore intriguing. Considering how such efforts line up with what Daniel foretold it appears that the “time of the end” may not be too far distant.Thanks for the link.---> http://www.jwbloodreview.org/Index.html
Yadirf
PS> I also posted this to you in the other thread, which you authored.
Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
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Yadirf
AlanF
Yadirf, if a group of men claims to speak for God, but promulgates false teachings such as banning blood transfusions, the 1914 doctrine, and so forth -- teachings that sometimes result in the death of someone -- then they are false teachers, which means they're false prophets, and they have bloodguilt for causing the deaths.
According to that way of reasoning then, Alan, those with wrong concepts, referred to at Daniel 11:35 -- mistaken concepts which result in the stumbling of "some" -- would have to be "false teachers" and "false prophets" as well. Of course the context suggests otherwise, because the outcome is favorable in that a refinement takes place for the better. That particular text in its entirety revolves around those who are sincere promoters of God's interests. The WTS fits that description.According to Proverbs, anyone declaring the righteous one wicked is detestable to God. JW leaders do exactly that by disfellowshipping people whose only 'crime' is to disagree publicly with some teaching.
There's much more to it than what you're intimating here, although I haven't the desire right now to go into it in depth.They deceive people in the first place, then hold over them the sword of disfellowshipping.
They've never deceived me. I don't think that the word "deceive" is appropriate. Yes, they've made erroneous applications to the Bible and taught that, but it wasn't for the purpose of deceiving their students.I'm glad to see that you understand that Daniel 11:35 applies before "the time of the end". But because JW leaders teach that we've been in "the time of the end" since 1914, they're teaching yet another falsehood in the name of God.
And I'm glad to see that you understand what I myself derive from that text. Actually the very fact that the Society has taught for so very long now that "the time of the end" started in 1914 (87 years past now), but in reality it didn't, makes the scripture all the more meaningful. Why? Read it again, it's as if it addresses that very problem ... a problem unique to the WTS. NOTE: "For the time of the end is YET for the time appointed." Can you get the feel of those words in light of the fact that the Society has from its inception preached something contrary to reality on that point.Just how many things does a religion have to get wrong before an intelligent person will realize that it has no more or less to do with God than any other? JWs apply one standard to others and another to themselves -- all so as to tell themselves that they're "the one true religion". If they applied the strict standard they apply to others to themselves, and were honest about the results, they'd immediately realize that they're very little different from religions that they regard as cults.
Accuracy though is not so much an identifying mark of true Christianity as is a genuine dedication to do God's will. Those in association with the WTS will place their lives on the line out of a desire to obey God. The same is not true however with Christendom as a whole, as seen by her being so much a part of the world (she's extremely nationalistic, as one example).There is no evidence whatsoever that JW leaders were appointed by God or Christ to do anything, not in 1919 and not before. Their claim to have been specially appointed is yet another proof that they're a cult, since normal people don't do this.
True, the appointment mentioned a Matthew 24:47 hasn't been realized yet, because Jesus hasn't returned. However, Jesus surely appoints "over his domestics" (verse 45) those who show the sort of dedication which the WTS has demonstrated, even from its earliest days. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind who Jesus has appointed over his “domestic” in this day and age, whether it was in 1919 or not.I wonder what you will do, Alan, once the refinement spoken about in Daniel has been fully accomplished. Will you then say: "See, the WTS finally came around to seeing things our way." One thing that you want to realize though is that the refinements will come about as the result of loyal ones having stumbled, not the other way around. It appears too that the site at the link which LPH supplied is the work of those who are behind the work of the WTS, not fighters against it ... which you are.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
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ianao
Looks like we have another MDS in the works...
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AlanF
All you're really saying here, Yadirf, is that because JW leaders claim to have been specially appointed, and you have a gut feel that they're right -- but absolutely no evidence to back it up -- there is nothing at all they can do so wrong as to remove them from their position. Well of course, the Bible gives examples proving you wrong. But you know that.
The mere fact that a person or group sometimes functions as a sincere promoter of God's interests means nothing, in view of the many biblical statements that indicate that God will remove his favor from those who act wickedly. Did not Jesus say, "Many will say to me, 'Did we not do many powerful works in your name?' But I will say to them, 'Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." Watchtower leaders have proved themselves as a group to be "workers of lawlessness" because of their callous disregard for the interests of those in their care. Because of pride, they continue to let children and adults die over the blood issue -- which they know very well is scripturally unsupportable. By your reasoning, no religion that claims to follow the Bible can be said to be a wrong one. That is patently ridiculous.
As for DF'ing and Proverbs, no, there is nothing more to it than what I said. The scripture is simple and my application of it to Watchtower leaders is unassailable: They declare good people to be wicked, and so they are detestable to God.
JW leaders have certainly deceived you, Yadirf. They've deceived you into thinking that they speak for God -- so much that you're willing to excuse them for every manner of misconduct, including being bloodguilty. You can't get much more deceived than that. The fact that they're usually guilty of stupidity rather than outright dishonesty is irrelevant -- they've deceived themselves and so cannot help but deceive others. And of course, there are still plenty of examples of deliberate deception on their part. The website http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm contains several thousand pages of detailed documentation proving their deliberate deceptions.
It's sad how you continue in your own form of self-deception by interpreting Daniel 11:35 as if it somehow supports your faith in JW leaders. You say, "See! The Bible says that God's people will get a lot of things wrong. JWs get a lot of things wrong, so they must be God's people." Can't you see what's wrong with that?
As for JWs being dedicated to do God's will, that's just as big a fiction as the claim of a lot of other religions to do the same. JWs on the whole are in fact mainly dedicated to doing the will of JW leaders, who in turn tell them what they think God's will is. This is exactly the same as other Christian religions do, except that most of them don't think that their leaders are virtually inspired.
What's the difference between one religious group falsely teaching that it's God will for its members to kill people in a war, and another group falsely teaching that it's God will to commit suicide or even kill their own children by refraining from blood transfusions? How about a religion that teaches that sacrificing children to God is a good thing? All are wrong, according to you, and all must be judged by the same standard. But you don't go along with that, because in the standard manner of Jehovah's Witnesses you think that JW leaders have a special dispensation that allows them to do any manner of evil and still have the right to claim to speak for God.
You admit that JW leaders falsely claim to have been "appointed over all Christ's belongings" and to comprise a "faithful and discreet slave class". These claims are nothing more than a usurpation of Christ's authority -- something that you would rightly condemn in anyone else. I mean really, how can anyone properly claim that Christ has judged them faithful? Don't you see how ridiculously arrogant that is?
: I wonder what you will do, Alan, once the refinement spoken about in Daniel has been fully accomplished. Will you then say: "See, the WTS finally came around to seeing things our way."
The chances of that happening are as remote as my seeing you strap on a pair of wings and flying to the top of Mount Everest. But if it happens, then I will have a few things to say to God.
: One thing that you want to realize though is that the refinements will come about as the result of loyal ones having stumbled, not the other way around.
Oh, I see. After 50 or 100 years of "stumbling" around blindly, teaching people to kill themselves over things not stated in the scriptures, they're all of a sudden going to realize the error of their ways and make changes? I've got news for you: experience with how changes actually get made in Bethel proves that they don't change anything except when outside pressure forces them to. Sometimes this pressure is in the form of JWs writing in and questioning things. Other times the pressure is due to lawsuits piling up and threatening the Society's financial position. The latter happened after they decided, in the early 1970s, to tell married people what they could and could not do in their own bedrooms, and people started filing lawsuits for breaking up marriages. They only made changes in the mid-1990s to their thoroughly inadequate child molestation policy after the Governing Body realized how many lawsuits were piling up. No, Yadirf, these men are not directed by God, but by self-interest.
: It appears too that the site at the link which LPH supplied is the work of those who are behind the work of the WTS, not fighters against it ... which you are.
I've got news for you: I and some of my buddies in and out of Bethel put that site together. We're also responsible for some of the content of Watchtower articles, and some of what's on the Watchtower website. We illuminati are getting a lot done, and the pity is that dumb dubs like you think God is behind it all. Well he's not. What goes on is pure church politics.
AlanF
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Yerusalyim
It's true, Hebrew has no "J" sound. And, if I recall correctly, Jesus was constantly addressing God the Father as FATHER ABBA Daddy.
YOUKNOW, if we are to avoid blood for sustainment (not what the bible says friend) then you need to ensure that you buy ONLY KOSHER meats, and then you have to salt those before cooking. Cooking the blood with the meat in it (i.e. not slaughtered in a Kosher manner) is still a sin by this standard. How many JW's are buying Kosher meat and how many say the "cook the blood out" If you are allowed to "cook the blood out" it would be no different than taking a pot of blood, cooking it, and eating it.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
YoYoMama
AlanF: To know if Witnesses are chosen by Jehovah to be his people, please read the "Proclaimers" book. Oh wait, you previsouly said that you have someone on the inside, a researcher, that told you that many things had been purposely left out. How convenient for you! You are so foolish dude, you can't even provide me with the name of that brother. What's wrong with me talking to him? Oh that's right is hard talking to someone in your imagination.