GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

by Terry 145 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Perry

  Let's clear the air. Please state your premises on these simple questions.

  1. Sin requires [results in] death and all men die. Jesus died FOR our sins. IS MANKIND PAYING TWICE?

  Of course not. In death, Man is experiencing the result of separation from God, the Source of Life.

  2. When the Israelites offered their sacrifices to cover their sins--did they die anyway? Why?

  Unbelievers die because of separation from the SOURCE of LIFE. Because the sacrifice of animals only Pictured Jesus, and the passover meal only Pictured the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, practicing Jews also died.

  Christians on the other hand are in a BLOOD COVENANT unto the death of both signatories with Jesus Christ. So here we have three deaths: (a) unbeliever (b) practicing Jew (c) believing Christian.

  In each case they die, albeit for different reasons. The appointment of all is the same.

  Heb. 9: 27 it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the Judgment

  3.Are we actually talking about physical death, spiritual death, a combination of the two?

  In the bible, DEATH = SEPARATION OF SPIRIT/SOUL/BODY . Each of these are spoken of as dead when they are separated from one another. They are alive when they are all together. The bible speaks of each of them as "YOU". Your spirit is YOU, your soul is YOU, your body is YOU. "He is sleeping" = the dead body (you/he) is sleeping.

  Understand?

  4.In the Garden of Eden did Adam die "on the day you eat of it you will surely die?" ON THAT DAY? Or, do you invent a Jehovah's Witness rubbery "day" that lasted a thousand years?

  I believe that Adam's spirit died some sort of death on that very day, and he began to be led by the body (flesh)

  5. Did God warn Adam and Eve that disobedience would not only kill THEM but millions and millions of unborn descendants as well or was that just an afterthought?

  Wasn't there, don't know.

  I have answered ALL of YOUR questions Terry. Fairness demands that you now answer at least ONE or TWO of mine OK? Please answer the questions in bold in the logic below:

  If a theif stands before a judge and his relative stands up on his behalf and asks the Judge for mercy stating that he will pay the offended party 10 times the amount stolen if he will release the thief into his custody.... the Judge is NOW faced with TWO POSSIBLE REMEDIES.

  (1) He can accept the payment. In that case, the offended party pockets the cash and ALL go home satisfied.

  (2) He can reject the offer & pass prison sentence. In this case only the offended party goes home somewhat satisfied.

  In either case, Justice is served no? It is the Judges' call.

  There was no relative with a ten time payment for Sodom and Gomorrah, hence the Judgment was just then as it is now.

  Is it hypocritical to critize God for showing mercy when we enjoy receiving it and at times enjoy giving it?

  Well, is it?
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Jesus' life, death, and resurrection go far, far beyond any mere propitiation. Paul developed this idea the most particularly because some of his letters were directly written to Jews, and so he couched his christology in terms they could understand in a Jewish context. No, not modern day Jews, who have largely moved past propitiation, but the Jews of that time. The temple worship of that time was in part propitiatory with regards to sin.

  Jesus came to heal us and bring us close to God and each other, and to show us what God is in a way that humans could relate to. God became man so that man could become god.

  BTS
• 

  Terry

  Perry says:

  1. Sin requires [results in] death and all men die. Jesus died FOR our sins. IS MANKIND PAYING TWICE?

  Of course not. In death, Man is experiencing the result of separation from God, the Source of Life.

  You have crossed out a word and substitued another. But, I was quoting your phrasing. Are you correcting yourself? See this quote from yourself:

  Perry Said:

  Lets' Review the FACTS, not your beliefs OK?

  God said sin requires death; Right?

  All men die; Right?

  Either I'm missing something or you are living in an alternate universe of sorts.

  What in the world is your point?
• 

  Perry

  Just a clarifying Terry. No conflict there.

  Now are you going to be a good sport and answer my questions?
• 

  Terry

  Perry said:

  2. When the Israelites offered their sacrifices to cover their sins--did they die anyway? Why?

  Unbelievers die because of separation from the SOURCE of LIFE. Because the sacrifice of animals only Pictured Jesus, and the passover meal only Pictured the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, practicing Jews also died.

  This is Perry superimposing the interpretation given in Hebrews UPON the Law observed by Israel. (If not, say so Perry).

  If Martin Luther had his way the book of HEBREWS would have been excluded from the bible canon. Did you know that? Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon. That's a sidebar FYI. Did you know Erasmus wanted to exclude HEBREWS from the bible canon as well? Another FYI.

  I mention this because INTERPRETATION of the meaning of Sacrifice is a premise in your answer. We have Paul to thank for putting this bee in Perry's bonnet, I assume. Perry will correct me if I mis-speak.

  (The author of Hebrews is anonymous. The Watchtower "scholars" name Paul with about as much evidence as usually provided)

  Your source of belief on the Law, its "real" meaning and of scriptural presentations of "death" are founded on confidence in Scripture itself.

  Even among the most fastidious believers and scholars (such as Luther and Erasmus) there is dissonance about foundational scripture canon.

  There are no autograph uncorrupt texts in existence of any canonical book anyway to correct errors.

  Origen seems to be the guy who first worked out the canon. He was the guy who believed in Reincarnation and cut his own testicles off because of a literal view of Matthew. (If your members offend you; cut them off!)

  The people who gave us the Catholic Church, Mary Worship, bible canon and a litany of crimes against humanity are to be trusted, of course.

  PREMISE: scripture is pure, inerrant, from God

  Garbage in=Garbage out
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Hi Terry,

  I'd appreciate your views/insights on my comments.

  BTS
• 

  Terry

  Perry said:

  3.Are we actually talking about physical death, spiritual death, a combination of the two?

  In the bible, DEATH = SEPARATION OF SPIRIT/SOUL/BODY . Each of these are spoken of as dead when they are separated from one another. They are alive when they are all together. The bible speaks of each of them as "YOU". Your spirit is YOU, your soul is YOU, your body is YOU. "He is sleeping" = the dead body (you/he) is sleeping.

  Perry quoting Plato? The neo-Platonic view saturated Christianity rapidly and Gentile converts kept their Platonic beliefs mixing them with whatever they heard about Christianity. We all can see, feel, examine the BODY and scientifically determine Death as the cessation of activity. But, how do you establish SOUL or SPIRIT? You can't, of course because they are artefacts of PRE-ENLIGHTENMENT!

  Your response if Pre-Enlightenment.

  Your faith comes from having read Scripture as interpreted through the minds of humans who were superstitiously inclined to attribute divine authorship. There is a test for the credibility of those scriptures but it has been LOST by the very men who claim how magnificent and holy it was!

  The actual God-inspired texts that you could hold in your hand and see with your own eyes in its UNCORRUPT splendor---allowed to disappear like every other proof of reality including the Ark of the Covenant, the tablets of Moses and the Ark of Noah. Isn't that convenient? Or shouldn't we exercise a minimus amount of skepticism?

  There are not autograph uncorrupt texts to VERIFY any of your syncretions, Perry. The apostles may as well have written God's words on a Lake with their finger!
• 

  Terry

  Perry said:

  4.In the Garden of Eden did Adam die "on the day you eat of it you will surely die?" ON THAT DAY? Or, do you invent a Jehovah's Witness rubbery "day" that lasted a thousand years?

  I believe that Adam's spirit died some sort of death on that very day, and he began to be led by the body (flesh)

  Because.....??

  What does "Some sort" mean?

  Aren't those words in Genesis so rubbery they can almost mean whatever you want them to mean?

  A "Day" can be stretched to mean a thousand years, after all. Death can mean "not dead" but just not "led by the spirit", whatever that is.

  If Adam "began to be led by the body"....as you say....after that "some sort of death" on that very day....what was leading him before he "died" some sort of death? The spirit? The soul?

  I'm confused by these weird ad hoc words.
• 

  Terry

  Burn the Ships says:

  Hi Terry,

  I'd appreciate your views/insights on my comments.

  BTS

  I'm off work today. I'll be on and offline. I'll sure take a look at your comments and try to respond.
• 

  Terry

  Perry said:

  5. Did God warn Adam and Eve that disobedience would not only kill THEM but millions and millions of unborn descendants as well or was that just an afterthought?

  Wasn't there, don't know.

  So, you were there for all the other questions? Or, are you relying on what you read ONLY?

  Your source of information is the PREMISE.

  An unreliable, tampered, layered wiki of a foundation (the bible) which cannot be tested (no uncorrupt originals exist) is no firm basis for reality.

  Faith is wishfully hoping things are true even though they are untestable.

  It is okya by me if you believe whatever you want to believe.

  What I take exception to is the remarkable effort to refute what other people DISbelieve based on the flimsy foundation of your own hopeful superstitions.

  See my point? (of course you don't.)