GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

by Terry 145 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  Perry admonishes:

  Please answer the questions in bold in the logic below:

  If a theif stands before a judge and his relative stands up on his behalf and asks the Judge for mercy stating that he will pay the offended party 10 times the amount stolen if he will release the thief into his custody.... the Judge is NOW faced with TWO POSSIBLE REMEDIES.

  (1) He can accept the payment. In that case, the offended party pockets the cash and ALL go home satisfied.

  (2) He can reject the offer & pass prison sentence. In this case only the offended party goes home somewhat satisfied.

  In either case, Justice is served no? It is the Judges' call.

  Definitions of judicial discretion:

  • Judicial discretion is the power of the judiciary to make some legal decisions according to their discretion. ...
    

    Chief Justice John Marshall wrote the following on this subject:

    Judicial power, as contradistinguished from the power of the laws, has no existence. Courts are the mere instruments of the law, and can will nothing. When they are said to exercise a discretion, it is a mere legal discretion, a discretion to be exercised in discerning the course prescribed by law; and, when that is discerned, it is the duty of the court to follow it. Judicial power is never exercised for the purpose of giving effect to the will of the judge, always for the purpose of giving effect to the will of the legislature; or, in other words, to the will of the law . [1]

  You see, it begins and ends with THE LAW because JUSTICE under law is getting what you deserve and not getting what you don't deserve.

  GRACE is getting what you don't deserve and it destroys the basis of Justice.

  God invented the Law as an extension of HIS VALUES. To nullify His Values is to destroy the very basis of His righteous (see the word "right"?)dealings with man in PUNISHING him for his actions and holding him accountable.

  GRACE means: you are not accountable.

  All the humans punished by God according to His Law vs all the humans held not accountable=Contradiction. Error. Inconsistency. Illogic.

  Either God is righteous BECAUSE His standard is unchanging or He is a chimera of the imagination willed into being by the imagination of men who shape His character according to their own values.

  Which is it, Perry?
• 

  PSacramento

  Terry,

  Grace doesn't mean you are NOT accountable, it has to do with God's love not being based on what you do or don't do.

  You are still accountable for your actions.
• 

  Terry

  PS Sacramento says:

  Death of our bodies is payment for the "original sin" that took away our immortality and while we still die after Jesus's death, our death is only physical and our salvation is based on God's grace, not any type of sacrifices or whatnot. If you believe in original sin.

  It's okay with me if you accept all the above. The PREMISE to all those things is Scripture, is it not? Metaphysics and Superstition lie outside of reality, testing, measuring, falsifiability, rational thought.

  Look at the list of things you have to swallow:

  1.Original Sin

  2.Immortality

  3.Jesus (death/resurrection)

  4. Grace

  None of those things exist in the real world, do they? They are constructs of the mind as passed down to us by syncretism in scripture. The scripture cannot be tested for corruption because the uncorrupt originals mysteriously vanished leaving us with assurances everything is not only authentically reproduced but---amazingly--without substantial error!

  All that is being swallowed in your very first answer! Ever stop to think about how much metaphysics is contained in all that lump?
• 

  PSacramento

  All that is being swallowed in your very first answer! Ever stop to think about how much metaphysics is contained in all that lump?

  Like I said, IF you believe in original sin and all that.
• 

  Terry

  Burn the Ships says:

  Jesus' life, death, and resurrection go far, far beyond any mere propitiation. Paul developed this idea the most particularly because some of his letters were directly written to Jews, and so he couched his christology in terms they could understand in a Jewish context. No, not modern day Jews, who have largely moved past propitiation, but the Jews of that time. The temple worship of that time was in part propitiatory with regards to sin.

  Jesus came to heal us and bring us close to God and each other, and to show us what God is in a way that humans could relate to. God became man so that man could become god.

  Is there a question for me?
• 

  Perry

  This is Perry superimposing the interpretation given in Hebrews UPON the Law observed by Israel.

  Yes. And this is in sharp contra-distinction of your constant framing of a biblical argument and superimposing a natualistic critique.

  Your source of belief on the Law, its "real" meaning and of scriptural presentations of "death" are founded on confidence in Scripture itself.

  As are your questions silly. Ask a biblical question, get a biblical answer.

  There are no autograph uncorrupt texts in existence

  Laughing now. How could you prove this? The FACTS prove otherwise. AS I already pointed out on another of your polemic threads...over 99% (over 5000)of all ancient NT manuscripts are in near perfect agreement. What is your objective?

  You ask a biblical question or attack a biblical problem, then you retreat into the cesspool of "the texts are false" when your logic falls apart. Why do you love your falsehood so much ...what has it done for you. Your self-deceptions are not your friend.

  Origen seems to be the guy who first worked out the canon. He was the guy who believed in Reincarnation and cut his own testicles off because of a literal view of Matthew. (If your members offend you; cut them off!)

  Origen was a heretic in the Alexandrian tradition, which of course is the exact same source/tradition of the 1% corrupted manuscripts that are so easily discerned.

  This is just gibberish.

  Terry, these are all just red herrings. I have answered all your questions. I have asked you several times to answer my questions with a plain yes or no opinion. And you refuse to do so. This is cowardly. Here they are again. Please stop running from me and answer the questions in bold below....from you personally.... not what someone has told you to think.

  If a theif stands before a judge and his relative stands up on his behalf and asks the Judge for mercy stating that he will pay the offended party 10 times the amount stolen if he will release the thief into his custody.... the Judge is NOW faced with TWO POSSIBLE REMEDIES.

  (1) He can accept the payment. In that case, the offended party pockets the cash and ALL go home satisfied.

  (2) He can reject the offer & pass prison sentence. In this case only the offended party goes home somewhat satisfied.

  In either case, Justice is served no? It is the Judges' call.

  There was no relative with a ten time payment for Sodom and Gomorrah, hence the Judgment was just then as it is now.

  Is it hypocritical to critize God for showing mercy when we enjoy receiving it and at times enjoy giving it?

  Well, is it?
• 

  Perry

  Oh the cuddly joys of raw atheism!

  GRACE is getting what you don't deserve and it destroys the basis of Justice.

  No Mercy for Terry - Others disagree. God's plan involves both justice and mercy. They are not mutually exclusive as you think.

  God invented the Law as an extension of HIS VALUES. To nullify His Values is to destroy the very basis of His righteous (see the word "right"?)dealings with man in PUNISHING him for his actions and holding him accountable.

  Explain from the bible how God nulified his values? Hmmmm? (WITHOUT superimposing a naturalistic/atheist worldview)

  GRACE means: you are not accountable.

  You simply cannot grasp what you cannot see. God's GRACE provides the legal foundation for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and through the processs of Sanctification ends in total accountability and perfection.

  All the humans punished by God according to His Law vs all the humans held not accountable=Contradiction. Error. Inconsistency. Illogic.

  False Premise. I am accountable and willingly give up the rights to my life (crucify myself) so that I may receive it again. God takes over and calls the shots ... not me.

  Either God is righteous BECAUSE His standard is unchanging or He is a chimera of the imagination willed into being by the imagination of men who shape His character according to their own values. Which is it, Perry?

  He is righteous Terry
• 

  Perry

  Terry,

  Here's some questions in bold below:

  If a theif stands before a judge and his relative stands up on his behalf and asks the Judge for mercy stating that he will pay the offended party 10 times the amount stolen if he will release the thief into his custody.... the Judge is NOW faced with TWO POSSIBLE REMEDIES.

  (1) He can accept the payment. In that case, the offended party pockets the cash and ALL go home satisfied.

  (2) He can reject the offer & pass prison sentence. In this case only the offended party goes home somewhat satisfied.

  In either case, Justice is served no? It is the Judges' call.

  There was no relative with a ten time payment for Sodom and Gomorrah, hence the Judgment was just then as it is now.

  Is it hypocritical to criticize God for showing mercy when we enjoy receiving it and at times enjoy giving it?

  Well, is it?
• 

  Terry

  Grace doesn't mean you are NOT accountable, it has to do with God's love not being based on what you do or don't do.

  You are still accountable for your actions.

  Okay. Let's parse this reasoning and see if it holds up.

  God has the Highest values.

  His actions conform to His values.

  This unity of standard, action and purpose make Him perfect in His activity.

  God has integrity because there is no dissonance.

  God's dealings with His creatures flows from His perfect standards and values.

  He punishes or rewards according to man's behavior. If behavior were not important to God there would be no need to reveal as Standard of Behavior or a reason to invoke punishments and rewards.

  What describes God?

  A God of Justice in whom there is no injustice.

  Can God remain god if He violates His own perfect standards and goes against His own values?

  Demanding perfect behavior is consistent. Punishing bad behavior is consistent.

  Ignoring ALL BEHAVIOR good or bad and attaching the highest value to a sinner regardless of how he acts is INCONSISTENT.

  If God was independant of His own values He would say one thing but do something contrary. This would be dissonant and unjust.

  Man is dissonant with God's perfect standards. This is why man was condemned in sin to die. Right?

  Love comes from what you most highly value. Hate comes from your values as well. Those things which violate your most cherished values you will hate. Love and hate stem from values.

  GOD is god because of the consistency between the highest values and the way He deals with others.

  It is not consistent to IGNORE bad behavior and LOVE without basis. It violates standards. It destroys the notion of fairness, justice and principle to do so.

  You cannot LOVE what violates goodness and decency and purity and remain god.

  Yet--read what you said:

  Grace doesn't mean you are NOT accountable, it has to do with God's love not being based on what you do or don't do.

  You are still accountable for your actions.

  You have a dissonant statement. Where is the dissonance?

  You are detaching LOVE (flows from values) from ACCOUNTABILITY (you get what you deserve). The dissonance is in the doctrine of GRACE!

  You don't DESERVE what you GET!

  Does man DESERVE love? If you say "no" you are right.

  Yet GRACE gives man UNdeserved love for which there is no basis.

  There is a huge GLITCH here.

  You are postulating and asserting something for which there is no BASIS other than propping up a docrtine called GRACE.

  There is no UNcaused cause such as LOVE detached from value. Especially when it comes to this being called God who is defined by values.
• 

  Perry

  Terry abandons all pretense of Biblical analysis and his animal naturalism takes over:

  Look at the list of things you have to swallow:

  1.Original Sin

  2.Immortality

  3.Jesus (death/resurrection)

  4. Grace

  None of those things exist in the real world, do they? They are constructs of the mind

  Terry,

  All you have to do is kill the hundreds of millions of people who have experienced otherwise and you'll have your perfect world eh?