by FreeAtLast1914 126 Replies latest jw friends
The bible may not have been directly responsible for the atrocities that Jeff mentions but people's interpretations of it have. The question I always have , is if God inspired the bible why did he make so ambiguous that it could be interpretted in such a way so as to result in these wicked events.
The same can be said about the Koran. Fundamentalist muslim have interpretted that book in a way that abhors moderate muslims.
@Perry--sorry for the delay in responding. I typically don't have the opportunity to visit this board daily. Thanks for providing some more details about your beliefs. I don't run across too many people who truly believe that humans and dinosaurs coexisted--fascinating!
While this discovery (which may be dinosaur soft tissue) is exciting, it seems a bit extreme to use it as a basis discard all of the evidence for dinosaurs having lived tens of millions of years ago. Rather, it makes more sense to consider the evidence as a whole and examine how this new discovery fits into that body of evidence.
Of course, there is a cottage industry of fundamentalist organizations that is focused on muddying the scientific waters as much as possible. These outfits remind me of the studies funded by the cigarette industry in the 1960s and 70s that found no conclusive link between smoking and lung cancer. I guess I can't really blame these religious folks--they're just trying to make sure they keep getting paid...sorta reminds me of a certain religious publishing company that many of us were affiliated with.
@lovelylil--sorry for the delay in responding. I don't typically log into this board every day.
Regarding the "literal days" of creation: You are correct that the Genesis account does not explicitly state that the "days" are 24 hours. But the way the days are described strongly weigh in favor of literal days. Specifically, when discussing each day, the writer states "it came to be evening and it came to be morning." Why would the writer discuss "evenings" and "mornings" of figurative days? That makes no sense. Are there any other places in the Bible where it refers to "evenings" and "mornings" of figurative days? No. The inconvenient truth for all except young earth creationists is that the Genesis writer was referring to literal days...and he gives it away by referring to evenings and mornings.
Regarding the sun revolving around the earth: For hundreds of years, the church taught that the Bible supported this view. Eccl. 1:5 states that the sun hurries back to where it started. In other words, it is saying that the sun revolves around the earth. Also, in Joshua 10:12-13 Joshua asked the sun to stand still and God allegedly made the sun stand still. If the writer realized that the earth revolved around the sun, he would have written that the earth stood still. Again, I realize that apologetics torture the plain meaning of verses such as these to cling to their beliefs. But when you look at the plain language of these verses, the most likely explanation is that the writers did not understand that the earth revolved around the sun.
Regarding the order of creation and photosynthesis: So you're arguing that Genesis 1 supports the position that light from the sun reached the earth before the third "day." So even though verse 15 says that "lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth" are created on the 4th day--after plants, you allege that the "light" of day 1 was the sun providing light to the earth? That just doesn't add up. Of course, Genesis 1 just doesn't add up. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to defend this nonsense.
Regarding the flood: You say that because I can't prove a negative, you don't have to respond. So if I say there's a purple teapot orbiting between earth and Mars, you won't be able to argue against it because you can't disprove it, right? I think any reasonable person has to understand that a global flood with waters higher than Mt. Everest about 4300 years ago simply didn't happen. And shouldn't the burden of proof be on the people arguing in favor of the supernatural?
As far as other savior Gods, like Perry said there is simply none like Jesus.
For one, I don't believe that for a second..."messianic" stories have been popping up for thousands of years... maybe 'horus' is a bad example, maybe he's not. It's all your word against theirs. (And Christian hands aren't exactly clean when it comes to killing people with opposing ideas and stories... removing evidence as it were. That IS documented.)
Secondly... there are no "saviors" like Frodo Baggins. No one else in all of literature carried the One Ring to Mount Dhoom along side Samwise Gamgee! It does not follow that because a story is 'original' (which I don't think it is) that it is thus the infallible word of god.
So really.. the point is - none of this matters in the least!
It's still just a historical fiction with no solid evidence that the miracles really happened or the prophecies happend as foretold and were not recorded after-the-fact, and were not shot-gun style (select books to include the bible that happened to get it right after-the-fact). We KNOW there was plenty of material written back then that didn't 'make the cut' in the Council of Trent.
"God" seems to have built the bible on a foundation of sand.
- Lime
PS: Heh heh. I love debating this stuff. You learn stuff, and it can be fun!
I don't run across too many people who truly believe that humans and dinosaurs coexisted--fascinating!
I understand Olin. But, there is absolutle no doubt that humans coexisted with dinosaurs.
My (formerly) atheist wife was completely flabbergasted to see dino and human footprints together in "65 million" year old rock. They're all over the place down here in Texas. Shoot me a line and I'll take you out to see them sometime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUQeN7INIc8
This "60 million" year old finger was found in the same area. CT scans confirm it's a real human fossil.
Medical Doctor Dale Peterson of Oklahoma City, OK examined the sectioned specimen by means of x-ray, CT Scan and MRI. He was able to identify joints and to trace tendons throughout the length of the fossil. His expert conclusion is: "There can be no reasonable doubt that this is a fossil finger."
But, there is absolutle no doubt that humans coexisted with dinosaurs.
Oh really?
Dr. Peterson is a graduate of the University of Minnesota College of Medicine and completed his residency in Family Medicine at the University of Oklahoma. He is a past president of the Oklahoma Academy of Family Physicians.
He had a full-time family practice in Edmond for over 26 years and is a past Chief of Staff of the Edmond Hospital. ... Dr. Peterson speaks regularly on subjects related to health and nutrition.
Ugh... not even verified not by a paleontologist - but by a family doctor. You've got to be kidding me.
Beyond that, I couldn't find any references to it in any published papers - and no carbon dating to verify it's age. According to talk.orgins, the finger was not found in situ (there is no matching hole in the rock formation to establish that where it was in the timeline). Someone basically found a something that looks kinda like a human finger laying on the ground somewhere, and a Family Medical Doctor took it on his buddies Christian radio show and said "Yep! I know it to be true! And the rock nearby has 60-million year old dinosaur footprints... so it MUST be as old as they are!"
No in depth testing, no peer review, nothing - for something that purports 'shakes the roots of evolution'. Just the opinion of a single nutritional expert.
There are of course other potential explanations - much better than family doctor Peterson can offer (being generally unfamiliar with anything except human anatomy), and not nearly so glamorous - that it could be a Ophiomorpha or Thalassinoides shrimp burrow.
Unless a finger was found completely encased in stone, it is highly unlikely that a whole human finger would be fossilized rather than just the bones anyway... making it further suspicious.
So... pretty weak, dude. If Peterson was so sure - he would have it peer reviewed and get that Nobel Prize.
- Lime
Limey,
Paleontologists don't perform CT scans silly; only docs do! But, you're welcome to come on down and check it out too.
If Peterson was so sure - he would have it peer reviewed
Haven't you heard? The peer review process was exposed as highly susceptible to fraud weeks ago.
Paleontologists don't perform CT scans silly; only docs do!
Ugh. Not true.
Haven't you heard? The peer review process was exposed as highly susceptible to fraud weeks ago.
(It's cute how your 'reference' here is your own ranting... followed by 19 pages of people disagreeing and debunking what you said. Anyway...)
Your pattern matching skills are completely defunct. ONE potentially negative data point does not constitue a pattern of being "highly susceptible". Countering that, there are thousands upon thousands of positive data points for peer review.
Let's compare that to fraud amoung Religion! LOTS of confirmed negative data points all over the place!
Besides what is your proposed alternative? Just blindly believing every peice of unchallenged information you read on the interent, hear from a friend, or see on TV (or read from a book centries of years old)? The Earth is flat and the center of the universe!
- Lime
Going back to somewhere near the start of the thread in discussing the shape of the Earth, the point was made that in Matthew's account of the temptation the Devil took Jesus up tp the top of a mountain where every nation of the earth could be seen.
I'd be interested to see both Perry's and the JW answer to this one. Is this to be taken figuratively in some way? Was it more like a vision of all the nations brought on by a lack of oxygen at high altitude and all the strain of being in the wilderness or something?
Just for fun, (and to change the subject) - I thought I'd throw some light on LeeT's question with Google Earth. I went to the top of Mt. Hermon - the tallest Mountain in Israel (ok, a few hundred feet over it, but I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt)....
Next, using the polygon tool, I clicked as far out onto the horizon as I could see in all directions...
And now all we have to do, is zoom out... (Sorry, for the top being to the South in this shot... but not a big deal in what we are looking for.)
And on a global scale...
(Look for the small white blob around Israel).
Now... the Israelites must have know about Egypt... but I have a feeling the mountain in LeeT's question had to have been an 'imaginary, taller mountain'. But it's interesting. (Obviously, using Google Earth, this is only a rough estimate, but I bet the actual distance isn't far off from this.)
Addendum:
Just to beat a dead horse - here's the view range from Everest
Of course.... if you believe the world is flat....
- Lime
