Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough 204 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

JosephMalik

Slappy does manke a vlaid point, there was no rebuke by Jesus to Thomas. Of course one can argue that Jesus knew what Thomas meant and no offense was taken
PSacramento,
That is correct and there is no need to even argue this point. Why? Because John explained how our Lord took the remark and why it was recorded just three verses later when he said: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. My God is shown to be an appropriate way to address the Messiah or Christ as John stated as this is well within the proper use of this word. Nowhere does John say that the Supreme Being was being identified by Thomas when he said it.
Joseph
jonathan dough

There is no need to run all over the Bible in order to establish a doctrine that Jesus did not teach and a doctrine that is not one of the commandments our Lord gave us to keep.
Even if that is true, which it is not, Christianity is more than what "Jesus" taught. We also learn the nature of Jesus from other writers, other witnesses and those who spoke of him. Paul's teachings are a part of Christianity. Your version of Christianity seems extremely narrow. The faith goes beyond merely what "commandments" we are supposed to follow. As for what Jesus said, he did say that you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I AM, which virtually every Christian denomination takes to mean that he was claiming divine status, for which they attempted to kill him. The Jews knew exactly what he was saying. The confession, that is, the command, to confess that Jesus is Lord is a tacit declaration that Jesus is God. Lord is meant in the higher sense, that he is God. From a JW perspective, one must ask given all of scripture on the topic how they can believe that He was just a man and nothing more.
Highly significant is Thomas’ use of “Lord” and the manner in which “Lord” is tied directly to God. Here, Lord refers to God in the supreme sense because there can only be “one Lord” according to Paul at 1 Corinthians 8:6, 7 and Ephesians 4:5. Although Lord (Greek kurios) has a wide application and can apply to men as a title of honor, such a lower meaning of Lord was eventually superceded by the higher meaning after Christ’s resurrection, and this is the meaning employed by Doubting Thomas.
(11) His purpose did not become clear to the disciples until after His resurrection, and the revelation of His Deity consequent thereon. Thomas, when he realized the significance of the presence of a mortal wound in the body of a living man, immediately joined with it the absolute title of Deity, saying, “my Lord and my God,” Jn 20:28. Thereafter, except in Acts 10:4 and Rev. 7:14, there is no record that kurios was ever again used by believers in addressing any save God and the Lord Jesus; cf Acts 2:47 with 4:29, 30.
(12) How soon and how completely the lower meaning had been superseded is seen in Peter’s declaration in his first sermon after the resurrection, “God hath made Him - Lord,” Acts 2:36, and in the house of Cornelius, “He is Lord of all,” Acts 10:36, cf. Deut 10:14; Mt 11:25; Acts 17:24. (Strong and Vine’s, 147)
“The full significance of this association of Jesus with God under the one appellation, “Lord,” is seen when it is remembered that these men belonged to the only monotheistic race in the world. To associate with the Creator one known to be a creature, however exalted, though possible to Pagan philosophers, was quite impossible to a Jew” (ibid., 147, 148 (16).
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#35
jonathan dough

Nowhere does John say that the Supreme Being was being identified by Thomas when he said it.
Sure it does. That is exactly what Thomas was saying. You need to analyze it. I'll put this on two pages.
The Jehovah's Witnesses also contend that even the apostles never thought that Jesus was God, but this ignores John 20:26-29 where Thomas, after witnessing the risen Christ, calls Jesus “My Lord and My God.”
The Jehovah's Witnesses reject this traditional Christian view and teach that Thomas thought of Jesus as no more than a special human occupying a “position far higher” than men and judges who were addressed as “gods” in the Old Testament (see John 10:34, 35 RS; Ps 82:1-6) (Reasoning, 213). Thus, Jesus was “like a god” (Should You Believe, Chapter 9). They also suggest “that Thomas may simply have made an emotional exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but directed to God” (ibid.).
First, this position ignores the common sense fact that Jesus had just appeared out of thin air, risen from the dead, and any Old Testament comparison to special god-like men are woefully misplaced.
Secondly, Thomas was engaged in a direct conversation with Jesus, not God in heaven, when he uttered those words. He answered Jesus who replied to him in return and nothing in those verses remotely suggests Thomas was speaking to the heavenly Father or referring to Him.
Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:26-29 RSV)
Third, calling out “My God” in astonishment would have amounted to taking God’s name in vain and blasphemy in violation of Exodus 20:7 and Leviticus 24:16, crimes punishable by death.
continued next post:
jonathan dough

continued from previous post re Thomas calling the risen Christ "God".
Fourth, Thomas was fully cognizant of the many miracles Jesus performed, in addition to Christ’s implicit and explicit references to himself as God. It truly stretches credulity to think that Thomas thought of Jesus as nothing more or less than a resurrected man. Casting all doubt aside, Thomas knew that Jesus was his Lord and his God. His answer to Christ “forms a literary inclusion with the first verse of the gospel: “and the Word was God” (NAB notes John 20, 28).
Fifth, highly significant is Thomas’ use of “Lord” and the manner in which “Lord” is tied directly to God. Here, Lord refers to God in the supreme sense because there can only be “one Lord” according to Paul at 1 Corinthians 8:6, 7 and Ephesians 4:5. Although Lord (Greek kurios) has a wide application and can apply to men as a title of honor, such a lower meaning of Lord was eventually superceded by the higher meaning after Christ’s resurrection, and this is the meaning employed by Doubting Thomas.
(11) His purpose did not become clear to the disciples until after His resurrection, and the revelation of His Deity consequent thereon. Thomas, when he realized the significance of the presence of a mortal wound in the body of a living man, immediately joined with it the absolute title of Deity, saying, “my Lord and my God,” Jn 20:28. Thereafter, except in Acts 10:4 and Rev. 7:14, there is no record that kurios was ever again used by believers in addressing any save God and the Lord Jesus; cf Acts 2:47 with 4:29, 30.
(12) How soon and how completely the lower meaning had been superseded is seen in Peter’s declaration in his first sermon after the resurrection, “God hath made Him - Lord,” Acts 2:36, and in the house of Cornelius, “He is Lord of all,” Acts 10:36, cf. Deut 10:14; Mt 11:25; Acts 17:24. (Strong and Vine’s, 147)
“The full significance of this association of Jesus with God under the one appellation, “Lord,” is seen when it is remembered that these men belonged to the only monotheistic race in the world. To associate with the Creator one known to be a creature, however exalted, though possible to Pagan philosophers, was quite impossible to a Jew” (ibid., 147, 148 (16).
Sixth, as we learned earlier, (see section 23) ascribing to both Jesus and God a role which can only be filled by one “Person” must lead one to conclude that Jesus is God. So, if Jesus alone is Lord in the highest sense, and God is Lord, then Jesus must be God. If both God and Jesus are sovereign Lord and master over all and eternal savior, and there can be only one such Lord over all, then consequently Jesus must be God. Similarly, God is Lord of heaven and earth, but Jesus also has all power and authority in heaven and on earth. These roles are not mutually exclusive as there can only be one such sovereign when read together. Therefore, Jesus was, and is, God.
Given the above, the Christian confession “Jesus is Lord” at Romans 10:9 takes on a heightened significance in that Jesus is acknowledged not as mere man, or angel, but God. &
Slappy

That is correct and there is no need to even argue this point. Why? Because John explained how our Lord took the remark and why it was recorded just three verses later when he said: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. My God is shown to be an appropriate way to address the Messiah or Christ as John stated as this is well within the proper use of this word. Nowhere does John say that the Supreme Being was being identified by Thomas when he said it.
Joseph
This is a prime example of having a preconceived notion and then viewing Scripture through that prejudiced "lens". Is taking Scripture "as is" such a novel idea anymore? That words may actually mean what they say?!
So if that's your argument, then why didn't Paul and Barnabas take the notion that they were God in the same manner as you say Jesus did here? And where in the whole of Scripture do you get that "My God" is an appropriate way to address the Messiah and still justify denying His Deity?!
Why does "doublespeak" come to mind...?
bk
jonathan dough

Jesus Christ resurrected Himself - (John 2:19 - 22)
He could not have done this unless he was God.
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#22
Watkins

He had 'permission' -
John 10: 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
John 17
The High Priestly Prayer
1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
JosephMalik

Third, calling out “My God” in astonishment would have amounted to taking God’s name in vain and blasphemy in violation of Exodus 20:7 and Leviticus 24:16, crimes punishable by death.
Jonathan,
God is not a name and you should know that. Along with this your other assumptions are unfounded as well. But it is typical of trinitarian argumentation and your doctrine is full of such assumptions. They remind me of the methods the WT used in their literature. So I do what I can to help others that are searching for such answers with my narrow minded view as you put it which is why I put together: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm It helped me resolve such arguments, helped to free me from the distorted thinking of such people and set me free. I suggest that others do much the same for themselves and not follow the teachings of others. I say this because our Lord said: Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. The words of others will not be considered at this time of judgment nor can the blame be passed to them when this time comes. Adam did not get away with it and neither will we.
Joseph
Deputy Dog

jeremiahjs
Many people think and worship that Jesus is God Himself, I was just trying to explain my faith, how i understood the bible. What lie am I beliving and teaching? That the Father is God and Jesus is God's Son? The bible has taught me this fact. What lies do you accuse me of????
When you said:
If the son was the Father he would know his own return.
You implied that trinitarians believe the son is the father. No trinitarian believes that.
You also said the bible says:
it says the word was "a god".
No, It does not.
designs

Paramenides meets Moses.
The post biblical era Bishops tried their best to meld two philosophies but came up with a comfabulation with several holes.
A 5'6" Jew/God flying around inside himself proclaiming to humanity 'Love me or suffer for all eternity'.
With the holes being obvious tampering with the texts became part of the game.....'the damn square peg will fit into the round hole!
No wonder Sir Isaac Newton walked away from it.

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

John 17

The High Priestly Prayer

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