You should worship the Creator not a creation.
And the Bible states that all things were created by, for and through the Word, the second person of the Trinity. And since the Word was before all things, he could not logically be a "thing" created.
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough 204 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
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Deputy Dog
frankie
So who's right? Are we to trust the Church in its power struggles to make sure what's really god's word and have it included in the Bible cannon? Surely such struggling would make them very biased and corrupt their judgement. Not very reliable.
That's only a problem if you think like the JWs. The Gospel is still the Gospel. Struggles over secondary issues don't really change things that much over time. Scripture determined who the Church is, the church didn't determine what was scripture.
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jonathan dough
Isaiah is saying what Jesus will be called and you are calling him the father but that does'nt make it true. There are many names that Jesus is called not all are true. Isaiah prophesised about what he would be called and the prophcey is true but the names may or may not be.
Don't be silly. So he is not called Prince of Peace? Mighty God? Even the JWs in their literature concede that his name will be called Eternal Father. Now you're just making this up because you broke through the ice and are plunging down fast in to the frigid cold waters of self-deception. To think for one minute that Isaiah 9:6 means that the child is just a man and nothing more is patently ridiculous. Don't forget also that the JWs teach, falsly, that there is only one who should be called Father, God, and it for this reason that the Catholics are wrong in calling their priests Father. Go ahead, look it up. Christ, God the Son, is eternal, and he is the Father in the sense of being the triune God, not the first person of the Trinity. He is not a created angel.
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frankiespeakin
Jona,
And the Bible states that all things were created by, for and through the Word, the second person of the Trinity. And since the Word was before all things, he could not logically be a "thing" created.
Well I think your stretching it a little there. Your logic is a little short sighted and based on semantics.
For example: Why couldn't Jesus be the very first thing god created and then god gets tired and says:"Jesus, I'm tired, if you want to make something go ahead I give you the power"?
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jonathan dough
PS, no offense taken, but sometimes I don't undertand the point of the scripture you quote without some introductory explanation of what it is supposed to support.
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frankiespeakin
DD,
That's only a problem if you think like the JWs.The Gospel is still the Gospel. Struggles over secondary issues don't really change things that much over time.Scripture determined who the Church is, the church didn't determine what was scripture.
O god I can't believe your that illogical. If the Church determined what is scripture they also determined what is the Church duh! They had the upper hand all the way. What you are trying to suggest is that the tail is wagging the dog, and what I'm saying is that the dog is wagging the tail.
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jonathan dough
Jona,
And the Bible states that all things were created by, for and through the Word, the second person of the Trinity. And since the Word was before all things, he could not logically be a "thing" created.
Well I think your stretching it a little there. Your logic is a little short sighted and based on semantics.
For example: Why couldn't Jesus be the very first thing god created and then god gets tired and says:"Jesus, I'm tired, if you want to make something go ahead I give you the power"?
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ME: Because the proof is overwhelming that the Word was not created, that's why. The Word is eternal. It's not semantics, but sound scriptural teaching that stretches back 2,000 years. The JWs' NWT itself concedes that the Prince of Peace is eternal at Isaiah 9:6. Col. 1:16, 17 is not a play on words but sound doctrine. The Word is before all things. Add the many other proofs together and there is no other acceptible answer. The Word cannot be God if He was created.
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jeremiahjs
Isaiah prophecised about what names people would call Jesus, not saying if the names are all true. There are many names people call or say about Jesus that isn't true. Isaiah was telling us what he would be called and you are calling the son father so this came true to the phrophecy, not that he is but will be called by humans. And decribing his oneness with God.
Jesus being the only begotten son of God means that Jesus was the first thing God created and all he had to create him out of God himself(no other creation's (parts) to use. Everything else was made through Jesus and for Jesus(and the Father), he is our true king under God. Jesus was the son of God long before he was born a son of man. Now all the Father has created he is giving it to his Son as king not as God.
Still only the Father knows the day and hour of the Son's returnMat.24:36, and the Father is greater than the Son John14:28.
John20:17 Jesus is going to the Father, His God and our God the only true God. God doesn't have a God he is God. Jesus cannot be God because he has a God, the Father. The Father has no God or creator, He has always been and always will be. God is the only thing in existence that hasn't been created, everything else has an origin at some point in time in the past.
And by the way the word trinity never was written in the origional text of the bible or taught by Jesus. Jesus said it is the Father alone you must worship and render sacred service to. Jesus is our role model and teacher. The only being in existence that has the love and devotion to the Father to do what he did -- obey God, not sin, and die for ours without deserving death. Only God's Son could do this even as a son of man.
If the Son is the Father how come he says he doesn't know the day and hour ONLY God knows? Mat24:36, Mark13:32, Acts1:7???
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Deputy Dog
frankie
O god I can't believe your that illogical. If the Church determined what is scripture they also determined what is the Church duh!
I think you misread what I said.
Scripture determined who the Church is, the church didn't determine what was scripture.
The Scriture came first.
What you are trying to suggest is that the tail is wagging the dog, and what I'm saying is that the dog is wagging the tail.
I believe you're thinking like the JWs (backwards), you're the one suggesting the tail is wagging the dog. I'm suggesting the Word (the scripture) came before the Church, and stands in judgement of it.
edited to add: Jesus chose the Church. The chuch didn't choose Jesus.
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frankiespeakin
Jona,
ME: Because the proof is overwhelming that the Word was not created, that's why. The Word is eternal.
Sounds good at first glance, but on closer examination I have to call you on it. There is no "overwhelming proof" right there tells me your a very big exaggerator overwhelming proof indeed!
It's not semantics, but sound scriptural teaching that stretches back 2,000 years.
Another great big exaggeration, what you didn't think I would catch it? How could any ancient writing be sound teaching when it has been copied over and over again over those 2000 years and is full of errors and redactions with no original copy as a proof text? E-x-a-g-g-e-r-a-t-o-r!
The JWs' NWT itself concedes that the Prince of Peace is eternal at Isaiah 9:6. Col. 1:16, 17 is not a play on words but sound doctrine. The Word is before all things. Add the many other proofs together and there is no other acceptible answer. The Word cannot be God if He was created.
Red herring, what does the WT agreeing on anything have to do with what we are talking about?
The Word cannot be God if He was created.
Yes he can, all god has to do is wave his magic fingers and say: "your god" Don't go telling us what god can and cannot do he can do anything,, he's god remember? Why put limitations on him,, he can even make copies of himself and call them all god,, so don't go using that arguement.