Of the sexual abuse survivors you knew. . .

by Lady Lee 51 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

Lady Lee
how many fit this description provided by No Longer Held Captive?
As a Nurse, I can tell you that their lives wont go well. Usually abused females end up neurotics and suffer from Personality disorders, and more often than not, Anorexic. They binge and then puke up all theyve eaten, its all about feeling guilty about being female and developing into womanhood, so they do all they can to destroy their body shape, because of that guilt feeling, and it all stems from childhood.
last post on page 4 of
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/184027/4/Did-You-Personally-Know-Any-JWs-That-Were-Sexually-Molested-By-Other-JWs
Here we have a professional who works in some capacity with sexual abuse survivors. My comments to No Longer Held Captive in the first post of page 5 are ignored
Well it seems to me that you have seen a very limited population. I have worked as a counselor with over 600 survivors of childhood sexual abuse. I never worked with a person who was anorexic. Actually the opposite was more likely to walk into my office. I've only worked with a handful of women who binged and purged but many more were binge eaters.
Most were not neurotic in fact few were. Almost all suffered from depression, low self-esteem, difficulties with trust in their personal and professional lives, issues around sexuality.
I worked with women with a wide range of dissociative disorders. Many had been wrongly diagnosed with a wide range of personality disorders all of which were wrong (in one case a woman was hospitalized for 1 week and received 5 different diagnoses that could not co-exist from 5 different psychiatrists). Another woman had been treated for 16 years before her psychiatrist sent her to me. In one year she had conquered most of her demons and was functioning quite well in her life.
I would say that up to 75% of the people I worked with were high functioners. They had good careers, they were excelling in college or university, they were raising families and doing a good job of it and had made sure not to pass abuse down to their children.
I saw women who had gotten into substance abuse, cutting, prostitution but had found ways out of it and wanted something better for their lives and were willing to work hard to get it.
To be honest there were the women who were too lost or too afraid to look at the past. My sister who committed suicide was one of them. Sad that I could help others but not her. We don't see the ones who ended it all so there is no way to count them.
I wasn't a miracle worker. Just a counselor who knew what the demons were and could help others move into a better life.
All that being said I too was working with a limited population. If you went to a female prison who could say most of the prisoners had been sexually abused and that was why they were in jail. But you can't take any limited population and say that is how all or even most sexual abuse victims turn out. We each see a small part of the long term effects.
And then there are those who learn how to deal with the past and actually have good lives without abuse repeating itself. We don't see them in hospitals or counseling offices. They seem to be able to manage quite well without therapy.
I don't normally call people out on their posts. Quite frankly it often amounts to one person's opinion over another's. But I cannot let this comment stand as is. Most survivors of sexual abuse already have issues of low self-esteem, guilt and shame. They certainly don't need some "professional" validating their worst fears.
After calling her or him out on their lack of response I got a PM (which I cannot post due to board rules that PMs stay personal) stating that there was no insult. Frankly I feel insulted.
I know some survivors do self destruct to the extent mentioned. But to say we "usually" do is flat out wrong. Survivors need to know they can go on to lead productive fulfilling lives. They certainly don't need to be told they are the dregs of insane asylums (which is what I thought as a child when no one would give me the help I needed).
Even without that help I did quite well as do most survivors. Yes we have problems some worse than others. But we are not impossibly lost to our pasts never to recover.
Maybe I'm just being too sensitive (I've been accused of that in the past)
So:
- Am I?
- Do the survivors you know fit the description provided above by No Longer Held Captive?
Finally-Free

I've known a few people who suffered sexual abuse, some female, some male. I am one of them. Of the cases I know of I can say that none have suffered from anorexia. Most eventually became overweight. All had self esteem issues as well as problems with sexuality and interpersonal relationships. Most have above average intelligence and are highly skilled. Of these, all work for much lower salaries than they should, considering their skills and experience. I attribute this to low self esteem, low self confidence, and below average communication skills.
I don't claim to be any sort of expert, and I have no training. These are just my observations based on my own experience and those of people I know personally.
W
edited to add: personally I don't like to see victims of abuse labeled, categorized, or otherwise compartmentalized. Each person is unique, as is each instance of abuse. Just because a victim doesn't react according to some "expert's" preconceived notions doesn't mean their pain is any less.
No Longer Held Captive

No one has ignored these posts..
You are overeacting to a general statement as to what I had seen in general population as a caring professional.
I dont know you as a person, and feel you are over reacting to a statement, which has been twisted out of context, about the statement I made about a proportion of the general public I had made, some of these were also JWs.
Most were not high functioning after these events, but even so, their lives went from bad to worse. And where does dregs of insane asylums come from? we dont use that term in Britain, and it is insulting to use such a term, and to users of the services.
Psychology is a broad field, has much fruit to offer, but does not touch the soul only the psyche, and thats were only the healing of God itself can come from. Some become more frustrated with therapy as they become frustrated that they dont become healed in the way they want to (Chuck Missler). And the pain of these people runs very deep indeed.
Most of the people I had seen, had self destructed, the youngest was 20 and had thrown herself in front of a train.
Some people do survive and move on. I know of a sister in London who was abused from the age of 8, she is now in her thirties and living in London, and has her own children now, 3 of them. Her brother may post on here, but he is active on youtube, and we both know the same abusing elder that committed these crimes of indecency, and he still stands up to preach.
After this I would not and could not enter into discussion with you as it could be very dangerous, and would only do so with another professional alongside.
Goshawk

It also might be a sample bias related to their profession. They in most circumstances do not see the entire spectrum of the population but only the sample that they have come into contact with during their career. The anorexic patient will need the intervention of treatment much sooner than the obese, or optimal weight patient; that by itself will skew the sample.
I do agree w/ Finally Free that each person and situation needs to be evaluated individually.
Lady Lee
Clearly you did not read my initial post. I am a professional and have worked with over 600 women who were survivors of sexual abuse. I am a retired counselor which means I did more than supervise and hand out medication.
While a few of these women had been hospitalized at one point in their lives I never saw them in a hospital setting. I did see some women in a hospital setting but I was not counseling them. So I do have an idea of what you witnessed.
Again you are taking what you saw in a hospital setting and applying it to the general population. At some point you must have taken a course on statistics. Possibly a course on research methods, statistics and psychology. You cannot take one population and apply what you see to the general population.
I had to take several courses on research methods. Repeatedly it was droned into us that if we were doing a study using university students as our subjects we could not automatically apply our findings to the general population simply because it was not representative of the general population. It was an exclusive group = people who had managed to go to university.
The first and best study done on incest survivors was done by Diana Russell. The only way her study was truly representative of the general population was that she had The Field Research Corp randomly select addresses in San Fransisco and ask to speak to the woman of the house and ask Even then Russell states that her sample that was a general as anyone could make a sample of incest survivors might not be indicative of incest survivors in other cities.
Her findings were very interesting. Mind you she wasn't interviewing people in mental hospitals. She was in the general population
- Out of 53 respondents who said were evaluated as having suffered extreme trauma
  21 % were functioning at an upper middle class career level,
  45 % were functioning in a middle class career level and
  34 % were functioning at a lower class career level
- Out of 8 respondents who said were evaluated as having suffered considerable trauma
  32 % were functioning at an upper middle class career level,
  64 % were functioning in a middle class career level and
  4 % were functioning at a lower class career level
- Out of 15 respondents who said were evaluated as having suffered some trauma
  42 % were functioning at an upper middle class career level,
  53 % were functioning in a middle class career level and
  6 % were functioning at a lower class career level
- Out of 7 respondents who said were evaluated as having suffered no trauma
  28 % were functioning at an upper middle class career level,
  48 % were functioning in a middle class career level and
  24 % were functioning at a lower class career level
When you look at the income of the respondents you see pretty much the same pattern. Those who were assessed as having experienced extreme trauma fell behind those with no trauma but those who considerable or some trauma matched those who had never been abused and therefore suffered no trauma
There is no debate that sexual abuse has a negative impact on survivors. It clearly does and for some people it is devastating. In my family alone there is an aunt who committed suicide when she was 13 and a sister who got into substance abuse and prostitution and eventually committed suicide in her 40s.
But what YOU saw in a hospital is not true of all survivors. It CANNOT be generalized to the general population. I am not twisting anything. Again you repeat yourself
You are overeacting to a general statement as to what I had seen in general population as a caring professional.
Again you are repeating yourself.
I dont know you as a person, and feel you are over reacting to a statement, which has been twisted out of context, about the statement I made about a proportion of the general public I had made, some of these were also JWs.
I've been here quite a while. If you hang around you will get to know me. Although you could just look at my posting history and that will give you a clue. Or go to my web page (In my profile) (Or try a search on YouTube for Lee Marsh, ex-Jehovah's Witnesses, mind control, cults)
Previously you did not say this was a "proportion of the general public." You said that as a profession nurse you saw something in a hospital setting and inferred that what you saw applied to all victims of sexual abuse.
That is all I wanted. That you clarify that what you saw was limited to your professional work in a professional setting and that it does not apply to all victims of sexual abuse.
In my initial post on the other thread I made clear that there were most likely many women who never went to therapy and were functioning just fine without help. I worked with a select group - those who wanted counseling.
My findings with the women I worked with could not be applied to the group you worked with or to all those women who never go for counseling.
VoidEater

I worked with sexual abuse survivors in psychological and spiritual settings during the 1990s and into the early 2000s. I have nowhere near the experience as Lady Lee. All of my experience is outpatient.
In my personal experience, NONE were anorexic. Most were women. Some tended to use food as a comforting mechanism and tended toward being overweight. A small number engaged in cutting. Not that it's linked, but all of the cutters that I saw were also overweight.
Those that made the most progress participated in individual psyhological counseling supported with group therapy. Those that made the least progress participated exclusively in spiritual processes without psychological counseling. Some of course were more motivated than others.
God was conceptualized by and served in different ways for the various individuals, some sought refuge in God, others forgiveness, others power, and still others had nothing but blame for God - a small number self-identified as atheist. From what I saw, those that were given a greater awareness of their patterns of thought and behaviour in psychological counseling became more self aware, which allowed them to more effectively seperate from the experience and early imprinting of the abusive relationship.
So, Lady Lee, my experience matches more closely to your own. I don't think you are overreacting so much as setting the record straight and bringing a much less restrictive point of view to the table.
jamiebowers

I am not a trained counselor, but from what I've read, seen and personally experienced, I have to agree with you Lady Lee. I've also read that survivors of physical and sexual abuse usually become protectors instead of abusers. It's my understanding that most abusers have been abused, but not all of the abused become abusers. It's like all collies are dogs, but not all dogs are collies.
Sad emo

My life's middle class and going ok!
Neurotic? Nah!
Anorexic? Yes, I had a phase, but it was more a 'trying to stay in control' situation rather than a body image one. btw anorexics don't binge and puke (they might purge if they've been forced into eating something they didn't want to). Anorexics just don't eat...
Depression and low self-esteem? Yep - but thankfully I now have some coping strategies in place.
Perhaps as a nurse nlhc, you've only encountered the most serious cases - as actually getting treatment on the NHS for psychological problems (eg counselling by suitably trained people) is pretty damned hard - resulting in no treatment at all unless a psychiatric condition presents itself.
Soooo no I don't think you're being too sensitive Lee, on the whole, it was a pretty sweeping statement. Like Finally-free wrote, we're all individuals.
No Longer Held Captive

dear emo, yes, the most acute, I worked in acute and forensic, both in uk, europe and in america. You are right treatment in the uk is pretty hard, virtually impossible even as the times we live in get tougher and tougher, but Blair before he left put plans into action to get rid of the social system, and the break down of services is part of that plan................wait until the new world order is here soon, then there will be no care for no one, and if you dont fit in, then its up the chimney you will go-eugenics they call it, and drs will be the ones calling the shots and making the decisions. So, people that have suffered on account of others, well what can be said?
The wbts are responsible for countless peoples lives, and there is stuff in the closets we just dont know about yet, maybe more dirtier stuff, well, Satan, is another sad wanker, but he keeps the best stuff until last.
I wish now I had never become involved at all.
No meetings now, I dont read their garbage, and I feel healthier, and dont have to dread going to their meetings anymore, but still feel for the poor souls kept chained, kept prisoner to the will and dirty deeds of this organisation that jehovah has chosen, jehovah being the God of love, the God of happiness, the God of righteous acts, and all things considered, where was his love, happiness and righteous acts when these poor abused souls called out for it? In another post here about jw anger management one poster says it takes about 10 years to get over the wbts thing, but i dont think it ever leaves you, like a bad programme that cant be scrubbed, theres always elements of it left over.
And the men in the congregations have been trained well by their corporation to sweep these things under the carpet. And they do it as cool as you like, no compunction, just as cold as you like, no second thoughts, well the mercy they give will be the same one they will receive, and just as cool and cold as you like. And as for King, there are many here that hate him, and i can see why, I have seen the posts, he has taken his experiances of being an elder into his new role as self proclaimed prophet, member of 144000, and he is of course one of the two witnesses, which hasnt by the way performed any miracles yet to prove this. People like him are all the same and from same stock, power hungry abusers of other people. Well, your times up mate.
I had nursed a person who had been thrown out of bethel in europe, they had mutilated themselves badly, and were subjects of emotional, physical and sexual abuse, I cant go onto detail and give to much away for sake of being identified.
No Longer Held Captive

what pisses me off even more, is how the wbts labels their abuse victims as mad, bad, indifferant, heretics and blasphemers.
Maxwell Jordan in the movie zeitgeist makes this very point, when you dare to raise the unpleasant tasting question questioning authority and its reasoning, this is how they will taint you, you become the enemy image, so the group, through fear of what they do to you, can maintain its social cohesion (carl schmidt).

Of the sexual abuse survivors you knew. . .

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