by UnDisfellowshipped 124 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I disagree with your views Jonathan. There is no such thing as a Holy Trinity in scripture.
Then you are blind, of your own volition. 2,000 years of emminent theologians and Church fathers have proved you wrong many times over. You're really out on a limb on this like many on this site. So be it.
Jonathan dough,
I know what you think. This does not concern me. I am only concerned as to what our Lord will think when he returns. In response to your research I offer what I have learned at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm Anyone interested can make up their own minds or offer additional comments not made by either of us.
Joseph
jonathan dough
You haven't read a word I wrote.
That is not true. I have read what you wrote. I'm looking to read what you have read (from the bible) that would lead you to believe in such a thing.
2000 years of Christian theology support immanent and economic Trinity.
One can find Arianism in "2000 years of Christian theology" too, but, I'm not going to believe in it anytime soon.
On your web page you state:
Even though John 1:1 speaks in the context of pre-creation immanent Trinity, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have swapped out God the Son, the preexistent Word, with the created humanity of Jesus. This is not accurate Bible teaching nor does it properly reflect the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not claim to say that the created humanity of Jesus was God or was with God in the beginning.
John 1:1 It doesn't claim he wasn't God in his humanity either. What about John 8:58 or
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Romans 9:5
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Then you say:
If you keep this distinction in mind you will be in a much better position to navigate the Jehovah's Witnesses’ maze of misleading tactics and come to a better understanding of what the Trinity doctrine actually means.
What biblical"distinction" are you talking about? Where does the bible make such a "distinction"?
...you have displayed a complete inabilility to grasp the nature of the hypostatic union.
Really? Sorry. As a trinitarian myself, and reading your web page, I was thinking you may be having that problem. Could you help out a fellow trinitarian? I'd like to at least understand you. Even if we don't agree.
Okay, Joseph, let's take a look at some of what you wrote on your website. From the first page alone it is very clear that you don't understand the Trinity, or you do and are attempting to mislead people as to what it teaches, which is exactly what the Society does. You are no better than the JWs in this regard.
Is the nature of God revealed or concealed by this concept that all three Gods when taken together are really one God?
Nowhere does the doctrine of the Trinity teach that there are three Gods! The Trinity is not tritheism. There is only one God Almighty, the same God of the Old Testament.
The Jehovah's Witnesses continue to imply that Trinitarian Christians worship three Gods, not one; that they are tritheistic, not monotheistic. The Jehovah's Witnesses draw parallels between the Trinity doctrine and triadic pagan worship which they claim is the ultimate source of the Christian Trinity, influenced by Babylonian gods who were worshipped in threes, the Egyptian three-fold gods of Osiris, Isis and Horus, Italian triune godheads, the Trinitarian Hindu group of Brahama, Sira and Visnu, and on and on (Should You Believe, Chapter 5).
But this is false and unfair. The Christian faith is completely monotheistic, and worship is directed to the only one true God Almighty who happens to have a threefold nature: “We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity,” (Catholic Catechism, 75). “[T]he Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.” Athanasian Creed; DS 75; ND16)” (ibid., 79).
Tritheism, the worship of three Gods at the expense of the unity of God is yet another pitfall which the Trinity doctrine specifically seeks to avoid (Oxford, 1211). And simply because the Jehovah's Witnesses are unable to grasp the meaning of “hypostases” or “Persons” does not entitle them to ascribe to Christians beliefs they do not hold.
More that that are these three persons really only one Being one divine entity?
Your English is tortured. What exactly are you attempting to convey here? The Trinity does not teach that there are three separate divine entities. You should know that.
Why does the Logos that was with God suddenly become the Son, which was only so named later after his birth as a human?
Again, you don't understand the teachings. The Logos doesn't suddenly become the Son, since the Son, the Word, is and always has been eternal. God the Son, (the Word) does not become the Son at birth/incarnation. And the created humanity, the creature Jesus, the man of the God-man equation of the hypostatic union, was not the Almighty. This would make more sense to you if you understood immanent versus economic Trinity. Furthermore, the Word was in fact referred to as Son long before Jesus was born: Psalm 2:7 reads, "I will declare the decree; The Lord has said to me, "You are my Son, Today I have begotten you." This does not refer to the moment of the birth of Jesus on earth. And begotten here does not mean created in the procreative sense.
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#32
Should it not say the Father, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit?
But Matthew 28:19 reads "Father, Son and Holy Spirit," all one name, not three. Who are you to change "Son" to "Logos?" You are playing semantic games. And you aren't reading all Scripture relevant to the issues. You are allowing an imagined tail wag the dog.
Does this explanation support the clear Biblical texts that teach us that there is but one BEING who can in the absolute sense be called God?
But that is exactly what the Trinity doctrine teaches; three hypostasis, not three separtate Gods or entities. And Jesus was a divine person who assumed a human nature. Joseph, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you honestly just don't understand it, but your logic is flawed, and you have not the slightest clue what the doctrine of the Trinity actually teaches. You are no better than the JW Society, and before you begin to mislead others into believing something that isn't true, you need to get a firm grasp on what it teaches first.That is only fair. But you are way in over your head on this one and I caution anyone to be very careful when reading his web site because it is a minefield of distortion.
Learn what the doctrine actually teaches, then criticize, please.
One can find Arianism in "2000 years of Christian theology" too
Incorrect, because of ample proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God. You can't have both.
That is not true. I have read what you wrote.
Nonesense. If you had we wouldn't be having this conversation.
JD wrote:Even though John 1:1 speaks in the context of pre-creation immanent Trinity, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have swapped out God the Son, the preexistent Word, with the created humanity of Jesus. This is not accurate Bible teaching nor does it properly reflect the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not claim to say that the created humanity of Jesus was God or was with God in the beginning.
Deputy Dog wrote: John 1:1 It doesn't claim he wasn't God in his humanity either.
Let's try a little common sense here. By necessity John 1:1 can't refer to Christ in his humanity. What is the time frame? In the beginning (immanent Trinity) and since Jesus was born only 2,000 years ago, that excludes John 1:1 from referring to the born creature, who was not the Almighty. Therefore of necessity and by logical imlication John 1:1 does not and can not mean that the Word who was God was the man of the God-man Jesus. You need to follow the logic. You're just arguing to hear yourself argue.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Romans 9:5
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
You haven't explained your point very well, and you are oblivious to the hypostatic union, and based on the points you raise it is quite evident you haven't read what I wrote because if you had this would make sense to you. Sometimes Jesus spoke as God, sometimes as the man; Jesus was/is a divine person who assumed a human nature. When Jesus took on the divine title "I AM" at John 8:58 he was speaking from the position of God, not the creature who was not the Almighty.
As to Romans 9:5, you are reading too much into it. It does not say that the flesh, standing alone, was God Almighty, and that is NOT what the Trinity teaches. "According to the flesh" means he was a Jew, and some Bibles such as the Catholic NAB don't tie the Messiah with the last four words, but separate it saying, "... according to the flesh is the Messiah. God, who is over all be blessed forever." Other translations do equate the Messiah with God, but Christianity teaches that is not referring to the creature, the created humanity. It doesn't mean mere flesh is the Almighty.
Could you help out a fellow trinitarian? I'd like to at least understand you.
I wish I could believe you, but I can't. We've gone at it before and you come across as petty and insincere. And if it is just too difficult for you to grasp, if you just can't get your mind around it, there is not much more I can add to make your job easier. Maybe it's just over your head, but it is all there in black and white. And the sheer weight of the Roman Catholic Church and virtually all Protestant denominations stands behind these doctrines.
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-2.html#8
At the outset it is crucial to understand two key concepts. You must distinguish between immanent Trinity (theological Trinity) and economic trinity, and understand how they relate to each other. This is not difficult. The Jehovah's Witnesses fail to separate them and erroneously combine the two concepts. This error lies at the root of the Jehovah's Witnesses’ harsh attacks on the Trinity and allows them to get away with distorting Trinitarian teaching. It is the means by which they are able to convince many people, who otherwise would know better, that the Trinity is utterly illogical and false when it is true and reasonable, even if certain aspects are grounded upon a measure of faith.
Immanent (theological) Trinitarianism, refers to the essence of God the Almighty, his hypostatic three-fold nature and his absolute and perfect being, before creation. It deals with the “infinite, blessed communion of the divine Persons among themselves, without reference to creation,” (B. Brobrinskoy, The Mystery of the Trinity [New York, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1999], 2, 3) (Mystery). It is the triune God as he is in himself (J. Moltmann, The Trinity and the Kingdom of God [Munich, Germany, SCM Press, Ltd., 1981], 151) (Trinity and the Kingdom).
This should not be confused with economic Trinitarianism (God for us), the concerted activity of the three Persons in creation as they “maintain and restore the created world to a state of well-being and communion with God” (ibid., 2). “Economic” refers to “divine management of earthly affairs” (The Encyclopedia of Religion [New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987], 54) (Encyclopedia of Religion). “It is oriented to the concrete history of creation and redemption: God initiates a covenant with Israel, God speaks through the prophets, God takes on flesh in Christ, God dwells within as Spirit” (ibid., 54). It is also called revelatory Trinity because the triune God reveals himself through his dispensation of salvation (Trinity and the Kingdom, 151).
Accordingly, much Trinitarian theological discussions about the “One God in three Persons” deals with immanent Trinity, not economic Trinity. The economic aspect of the Trinity includes the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God (The New Catholic Encyclopedia [Washington D.C., The Catholic University of America, 1967], 943) (Catholic Encyclopedia) and not part of the immanent Trinity. But that is precisely where the Jehovah's Witnesses mistakenly inject him resulting in a great deal of unnecessary confusion.
They argue, to take one illustration, that Jesus could not be God yet be with God; and he could not be the Father whom he prayed to (Should You Believe in the Trinity? [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989; http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm], Chapter 7) (Should You Believe). But this is a classic example of the Jehovah’s Witnesses mixing apples and oranges. The man of the God-man Jesus, the created humanity who was not God (Catholic Encyclopedia, 943), could rightfully pray to God the Father and did regard himself as inferior; this He performed in the context of economic Trinity.
The idea that the preexistent Word (God the Son) was with God stems from John 1:1:
In the beginning was the Word,
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.
Even though John 1:1 speaks in the context of pre-creation immanent Trinity, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have swapped out God the Son, the preexistent Word, with the created humanity of Jesus. This is not accurate Bible teaching nor does it properly reflect the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not claim to say that the created humanity of Jesus was God or was with God in the beginning.
If you keep this distinction in mind you will be in a much better position to navigate the Jehovah's Witnesses’ maze of misleading tactics and come to a better understanding of what the Trinity doctrine actually means.
Is the nature of God revealed or concealed by this concept that all three Gods when taken together are really one God?
Nowhere does the doctrine of the Trinity teach that there are three Gods! The Trinity is not tritheism. There is only one God Almighty, the same God of the Old Testament.
Jonathan,
What I said above is correct. This is a simple example of the confusion and idiocy that permeates this doctrine. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but now by magic (its a mystery you know) these three persons are identified as one God. Yet each one is called God in its own right. Sure you deny this and call this observation tritheism, call it anything you like, but that is what trinitarianism is. The Old Testament does not say that anywhere. Jews did not teach it. Jesus did not teach it. It is not a secret or mystery that came along after the Apostles all died and Christianity fell away. So we get this pretense from trinitarians that all these persons apply to the one God of the old testament and we are supposed to believe it. The God Almighty of the old Testament has only one name not three and stands alone.
Of course Trinitarians claim they do not teach tritheism. They can deny this all they want. Now in the real scriptural world using the term God, the word God for others that are not the Supreme Being be they human or otherwise does not make them the God of the Old Testament. This is also proper use of the expression God and Jews were not confused by such use. It was used that way in their text and I demonstrated how our Lord used it in his defense. Now everyone was not up on theology by then and our Lord had to correct them but this is truth and we now see our Lord teaching us that this is the real truth of this matter.
Joseph
P.S. I am not concerned with JW teachings since they make numerous errors in their material. Such comments do not apply to me.
