Lets Debate the Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 124 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Come on everyone, let us reason on the Trinity Doctrine using the Bible!

    You know there has to be at least 3 big long Trinity threads on here per month... so I figured I'd go ahead and start one for November.

    The Bible says that there is only one true God who is God by Nature, the only God who deserves our worship and prayer. Jesus taught that His Father is God. However, on the other hand, the Scriptures repeatedly say (both explicitly and implicitly) that Jesus Christ is God by Nature (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:6; 2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13; John 10:30) as well as describing the Holy Spirit as having all of the same qualities and attributes as The Father and The Son.

    I look forward to having a serious debate about the Trinity doctrine, based on the Holy Scriptures.

    (Please, try to keep the name-calling or ad hominem personal attacks to a minimum if at all possible)

  • AllTimeJeff

    As an uninterested observer on the trinity, but an interested observer in different people's belief, I wish you the best in your discussion.

    With a broader knowledge of bible tradition now, I can see how the Trinity can be believed. JW's do lie about this, which is the only reason I ever give a passing glance at subjects like this.

    I don't believe in the bible, but respect your right to do so. Peace....

  • yesidid


  • WTWizard

    I will here assume that the Bible is an authority (which, to me, is a big stretch).

    I see scriptures like John 1:1 (which the Not Well Translated version tampered with) telling us that the Word was with God, and the Word is God. That tells me that God and the Word have to be the same Being. Another scripture tells us that Jesus, in his own words, and God, are one. You are going to find so many other scriptures like these (in fact, so many that the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger had to put out a brochure to refute them all)--telling us that, in fact, the Trinity is a teaching that is in the Bible.

    However, if you do not take the Bible literally, one could conclude that Jesus was his own God, and merely teaching others to be their own Gods as well. If that's the case, of course Jesus and God would have been one and the same. And that would have been true of anyone that got to the point of fully independent thinking--once your thinking is fully integrated, you become your own God.

  • mouthy

    The Trinity is an unfathomable, and yet unmistakable doctrine in Scripture. As Jonathan Edwards noted, after studying the topic extensively, “I think [the doctrine of the Trinity] to be the highest and deepest of all Divine mysteries” (An Unpublished Treatise on the Trinity). Yet, though the fullness of the Trinity is far beyond human comprehension, it is unquestionably how God has revealed Himself in Scripture—as one God eternally existing in three Persons. This is not to suggest, of course, that the Bible presents three different gods (cf. Deut. 6:4 ). Rather, God is three Persons in one essence; the Divine essence subsists wholly and indivisibly, simultaneously and eternally, in the three members of the one Godhead—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures are clear that these three Persons together are one and only one God ( Deut. 6:4 ). John 10:30 and 33 explain that the Father and the Son are one. First Corinthians 3:16 shows that the Father and the Spirit are one. Romans 8:9 makes clear that the Son and the Spirit are one. And John 14:16 , 18 , and 23 demonstrate that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one. Yet, in exhibiting the unity between the members of the Trinity, the Word of God in no way denies the simultaneous existence and distinctiveness of each of the three Persons of the Godhead. In other words, the Bible makes it clear that God is one God (not three), but that the one God is a Trinity of Persons. In the Old Testament, the Bible implies the idea of the Trinity in several ways. The title Elohim (”God”), for instance, is a plural noun which can suggest multiplicity (cf. Gen. 1:26 ). This corresponds to the fact that the plural pronoun (”us”) is sometimes used of God ( Gen. 1:26 ; Isa. 6:8 ). More directly, there are places in which God’s name is applied to more than one Person in the same text ( Ps. 110:1 ; cf. Gen. 19:24 ). And there are also passages where all three divine Persons are seen at work ( Is. 48:16 ; 61:1 ). The New Testament builds significantly on these truths, revealing them more explicitly. The baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19 designates all three Persons of the Trinity: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” In his apostolic benediction to the Corinthians, Paul underscored this same reality. He wrote, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God [the Father], and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” ( 2 Cor. 13:14 ). Other New Testament passages also spell out the glorious truth of the Triune God ( Romans 15:16 , 30 ; 2 Cor. 1:21–22 ; Eph. 2:18 ). In describing the Trinity, the New Testament clearly distinguishes three Persons who are all simultaneously active. They are not merely modes or manifestations of the same person (as Oneness theology incorrectly asserts) who sometimes acts as Father, sometimes as Son, and sometimes as Spirit. At Christ’s baptism, all three Persons were simultaneously active ( Matt. 3:16–17 ), with the Son being baptized, the Spirit descending, and the Father speaking from Heaven. Jesus Himself prayed to the Father (cf. Matt. 6:9 ), taught that His will was distinct from His Father’s ( Matt. 26:39 ), promised that He would ask the Father to send the Spirit ( John 14:16 ), and asked the Father to glorify Him ( John 17:5 ). These actions would not make sense unless the Father and the Son were two distinct Persons. Elsewhere in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit intercedes before the Father on behalf of believers ( Rom. 8:26 ), as does the Son, who is our Advocate ( 1 John 2:1 ). Again, the distinctness of each Person is in view. Jesus is also given titles that are unique to YHWH (the formal name of God) in the Old Testament. The Old Testament title “redeemer” ( Psalm 130:7 ; Hosea 13:14 ) is used of Jesus in the New Testament ( Titus 2:13 ; Revelation 5:9 ). Jesus is called Immanuel—“God with us”—in Matthew 1. In Zechariah 12:10 , it is YHWH who says, “They will look on me, the one they have pierced.” But the New Testament applies this to Jesus’ crucifixion ( John 19:37 ; Revelation 1:7 ). If it is YHWH who is pierced and looked upon, and Jesus was the one pierced and looked upon, then Jesus is YHWH. Paul interprets Isaiah 45:22-23 as applying to Jesus in Philippians 2:10-11 . Further, Jesus’ name is used alongside God’s in prayer “Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” ( Galatians 1:3 ; Ephesians 1:2 ). This would be blasphemy if Christ were not deity. The name of Jesus appears with God's in Jesus' commanded to baptize “in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” ( Matthew 28:19 ; see also 2 Corinthians 13:14 ). The Bible is clear. There is only one God, yet He exists, and always has existed, as a Trinity of Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit (cf. John 1:1 , 2 ). To deny or misunderstand the Trinity is to deny or misunderstand the very nature of God Himself.

    Hope this helps, and God bless. -Daniel J. Angle Working4Christ Ministries. Proud to be a Slave of God. Knight of the Lord's Table, defending the Truth. oxxxx[]:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>


  • delivered

    Mouthy: Hello and thank you for the post explaining the Holy Trinity. I am new to this site and am also a born again Christian who believes according to scripture that God is three persons working simultaneously with one another. How awesome. But, it seems to me that those who don't believe in the trinity would surmise in their own minds that there couldn't possibly have been non other than God who could atone for the sins of mankind.

    Thank you and God Bless. I will certainly refer to your eloquent and biblically factual explanation when speaking to others about the trinity.

  • cantleave

    Following out of interest

  • designs

    The Bishops who concocted this theory struggled mightily to make the young Jew, Jesus, the equal if not the better to the gods of the Greek and Roman world.

    As Professor Owen of Cambridge said 'if you get rid of all of the Greek philosophical vocabulary in Christian theology you cannot express God's threeness-in-oneness in anything approximating a coherent way. You simply can't do it. And historically its the case that whenever people have tried to purge Christianity of what we would call metaphysical language , philosophical language, it always ends up in Unitarianism.'

    The great tragedy is that they turned this good Jew into a monster god capable of doing the unthinkable.

  • Chalam

    Welcome delivered!



  • The Oracle
    The Oracle

    I too am following out of interest.

    Life is an interesting little puzzle isn't it?

    Is there a superior life-form that could be referred to as a God? Is this superior life-form a singular personality, or is it a triune god-head?

    Or is this superior life-form something completely different? Does he or she exist at all? Carry on team! I will stand by and keep reading.

    The Oracle

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