Need help disproving 607BCE

by 2pink 160 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    SCHOLAR: "Judah's punishment of seventy years as stated by Jeremiah, Ezra, Daniel and Zechariah".

    Jeremiah says that when the Seventy Years were completed, Babylon would be punished; so he was not speaking about punishment of either Judah or Jerusalem.

    When Daniel (9:2) speaks of "70 years" he is speaking of Jerusalem, not Judah. And the WTS does not end the 70 years at the time when Jerusalem was rebuilt. The place was still davastated decades after Daniel's time.

    Ezra does not use the expression "seventy years" anywhere.

    What was the end point of the Seventy Years in Zechariah? Was it the return of the Jews under Zerubbabel?

    When did Judah stop being punished by the LORD? Was it 539 BCE, 537 BCE, 70 CE, 1914 CE, 1948 CE? Is Judah now back in the LORD's favour, in accord with CTR's teachings?

    Is the WTS now shifting from "removal of all humans and domestic animals" to simple "punishment". If so, when did the LORD first start punishing Judah or Jerusalem?


  • scholar

    Doug Mason

    Post 736

    It is foolish to equate the date and event of the Fall of Jeusalem with the event and date for the Fall of Babylon. Why so? For the simple reason scholars on the basis of available data do not the precise year dated for the Fall of Jeusalem whereas there is certainty as to the date for the Fall of Babylon. When the scholarly community has solved this problem then and only then can change matters. You let me know whether it is 586 or 587 BCE and I will see what I can do for you.

    539 BCE is a pivotal date and like all othe dates it too is 'calculated'. However, scholar prefers the term 'Absolute Date' as a matter of preference. I am very happy with sentimentality and as this sentiment denotes history and history is a basis of faith then I believe I am in good company.

    "A pivotal date is a calender date in history that has a sound basis of acceptance and that corresponds to a specific event recorded in the Bible" says the All Scripture Is Inspired of God And Beneficial, 1990, p.290. The term was developed by the celebrated WT scholars and is a far better term than 'Absolute Date because it describes the status of the event and date rather than its precision. Such a date shares the same property as an Absolute Date inasmuch as both are astronmically fixed as a sound basis of acceptance.

    I have a personal copy of the DOTHB and fully appreciate historiography and history as related to the Bible and I believe that such matters have a direct bearing on chronology and theology. It is for these reasons that validate WT chronology as opposed to other chronologies. In short, one finds that in historiography and history with its development of theology provides a 'ground' for WT Bible chronology.

    If you cannot understand how the term' Absolute Date' can be used rhetorically then I cannot help you , my advice is to meditate on the matter.

    Kind regards

    scholar JW

  • scholar

    Doug Mason

    Post 737

    Jeremiah does indeed after discussing the seventy years of Judah's punishment as exile-servitude-desolation describes Babylon's fate which began after Judah's punishment had ended and it could be argued that it began with the Fall of the city in 539 BCE. Jeremiah is not specific about a precise event or date for that prophecy to begin.

    True, Daniel refers to Jerusalem but the city could also represent not only its people but the country in which it was located namely Judah and so what befell the city also affected the people and the territory of Judah.

    The seventy years ended with the Return of the Jews to their cities and territory which included its capital Jerusalem in 537 BCE.

    Ezra wrote the book of Chronicles and in 2 Chronicles 36:21 he does use the expression 'seventy years'.

    Zechariah's 'seventy years' ended with the return of the Jews under Zerubbabel in 537 BCE.

    Judah's punishment ended after sevnty years with the Return from Exile in 537 BCE

    The removal of humans and animals from the land as punishment was for the period of seventy years (607 -537BCE)

    Kind regards

    scholar JW

  • scholar

    Black Sheep

    Post 3680

    I did in fact reply to Alan F's tabulation on various occasions and pointed out to him that his tabulation was based on assumptions and key omissions and therefore it just a simple piece of 'mischief making'. My dealings with him ground to a halt on my part because I felt that his atheism made his opinions worthless because he did not even believe in the things he was writing about.

    scholar JW

  • scholar


    Post 641

    I agree fully with the forementioned quotation.

    scholar JW

  • scholar


    Post 4236

    There is indeed a strong exegetical connection between Luke 21 and Daniel 4 and this shown by a common vocabulary and the fact that the focus of the tree dream and the Gentile Times are in connection to Kingship and the city of the King, Jerusalem which typified God's Kingdom. So, there are commonalities in both narratives that link the two but as this is interpretation then the matter must rest with the reader. If you are not convinced then seek a better interpretation and when you find one, let me know.

    The theme of Dan 4 is God's Kingdom, the theme of the book of Daniel is God's Kingdom. the theme of the Old Testament is God's Kingdom, the theme of the New Testament is God's Kingdom. Are you getting the point? This simple fact is acknowleged by many theologians and Bible scholars form all denominations.

    I have no problem with your last comment on the dominance of Babylon for seventy years because Jeremiah clearly knew this for Judah was servient to Babylon, exiled in Babylon leaving a desolated land all under Babylon's dominance for that period of seventy years. Well done!!!!!

    scholar JW

  • Alwayshere

    SCHOLAR IF YOU AGREE WITH MY QUOTATION, bABYLON FELL IN 539 so if you add 70 years to it, you get 609 for the 70 years. And what about my other question?

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    scholar: "I have a personal copy of the DOTHB and fully appreciate historiography and history as related to the Bible and I believe that such matters have a direct bearing on chronology and theology. It is for these reasons that validate WT chronology as opposed to other chronologies. In short, one finds that in historiography and history with its development of theology provides a 'ground' for WT Bible chronology."

    Cool. I have personal copies of Russell's Studies in the Scriptures and fully appreciate the history of WT chronology and the development of JW theology. If you take a careful look at Vol. 3, p. 342:

    "Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation--no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the Bible testimony on this subject.... Nor should any doubt the fact that the forty years of "harvest" began in the fall of 1874"

    In case anyone had missed my earlier posts, Russell buttressed his false prophecies and flawed chronology with pyramidology. Russell condemned anyone that would scoff at pyramidology as an unbeliever in the Bible and an evolutionist. Page 374 states, "Some may scoff at the testimony of this stone "Witness," as they scoff at God's written Word". Indeed every pyramidologist must embrace the eternal truths that Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon in 607BC, that the "Time of the End" commenced in 1799AD (when Napoleon invaded Egypt) and that the "Time of the End" ended in AD1914 (when the New Order began).

    Certainly, if anyone were to accept the "truths" published in Studies in the Scriptures, they would have no problem rewriting a date on some remote historical event. Moving historical events 20 years here and there is small potatoes for "celebrated JW scholars".

    Anybody want to guess what Russell said about the significant years AD1590-1591? It's amazing to look at a 100 year-old book and read such brain-farts. It's even more amazing that Watchtower Corporation is still clinging to such brain-farts as "valid WT Bible chronology".

  • The Oracle
    The Oracle

    Great points Billy. I too have my own personal copies of some of the Studies in the Scriptures books.

    What you are writing is true. Pyramidoligy lies at the foundation of the JW's core teaching regarding 1914.

    Scholar: may I suggest picking up an encyclopedia? stay with me.... don't just pick it up... I strongly encourage you to open it up and do some reading. That's right. R-E-A-D. You can read can't you? Of course I am being sarcastic, but seriously, your double talk is tiresome to the nth degree. If you would simply cut the bull-shit and try being honest with yourself you might actually grasp reality.

    The Oracle

  • AllTimeJeff

    Man, there was this odor today all over the internet... and here psuedo-scholar has returned from his Robitussin Bender......

    I don't know what books he reads, all I know is psuedo-scholar will always try to defend the WT. That alone should be enough to take away his drivers license... Nice points all...

    Scholar, have you ever watched Stargate? That movie and subsequent show in a nutshell is what CT Russell was hoping for, flying Pyramids...

Share this