is jesus a god?

by javig 304 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Phil 2:9 -- God exalted HIM (Jesus) so we all should worship JESUS

    When God exalted the risen Jesus to His right hand it did not thereby make Jesus superior to God - (Philippians 2:9)

    Another line of argument advanced by the Jehovah’s Witnesses denies Christ’s divine preincarnate status by incorrectly interpreting Philippians 2:9 to mean that under the doctrine of the Trinity the exalted Christ would have returned to a position in heaven superior to God. They write:

    Speaking of the resurrection of Jesus, Peter and those with him told the Jewish Sanhedrin: “God exalted this one [Jesus] … to his right hand.” (Acts 5:31) Paul said: “God exalted him to a superior position.” (Philippians 2:9) If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God. (Should You Believe, Chapter 7).

    This reflects a glaring misconception of what the Trinity doctrine teaches and the nature of the hypostatic union. It was not God the Son who was exalted; it was not the God in the God-man equation that bled on the cross. Philippians 2:7-11 puts verse 9 into better context, stating that the preexistent Word:

    [E]mptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:7-11 RSV)

    First, it is self-evident here that the risen Christ is exalted above all creation and every name in the universe, but not God Himself, as He is God the Son. This is indicated in these same verses where the Christian confessional states “Jesus is Lord” which means, among other things, that Jesus is God. (See section 35 for a detailed explanation of this meaning of “Lord”).

    Secondly, Philippians 2:9 does not say that God the Son was “raised to a position higher than he had previously enjoyed.” God the Son, the Word, when He emptied Himself to take the form of a slave never ceased being fully God. It was his Glory that was veiled for a time being; he temporarily resigned his “status.”

    Christ possessed equality with God prior to His incarnation, and then for a time veiled that glory, being always God in all of the co-equal attributes, but in the incarnation never using His Godly powers to better Himself. He was fully God, fully man, God taking on the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3), not a man adding Godliness. (Strong and Vine’s, 42)

    [I]n the process of the Incarnation, he empties himself of his divine “status” … (Fundamentals of Christology, 317).

    To draw an analogy, when the President of the United States undergoes surgery whereby he is rendered unconscious during the operation he temporarily relinquishes presidential authority to the vice-president. After the operation that authority is tendered back to the president who never ceases being president during the operation in the same manner that the Word never ceased being God the Son when He emptied Himself. It was merely his status or role or relationship that changed. Accordingly, being fully God the Son, the God in the God-man equation was never elevated back or exalted to a position superior to God because He never ceased being God in the same way that the president never stopped being President.

    Third, the created humanity of Jesus could not have been “raised to a position higher than he had previously enjoyed” as the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim because He was not God and there could not have been a position He previously enjoyed in heaven to be raised back to.

    Fourth, the focus is on the humanity of Christ, although this humanity can never be viewed in isolation because, “In Jesus humanity does not exist in itself, but it is the Son who exists as man through his human nature. Jesus gives back his whole divine self to the Father on the cross in and through his humanity (Fundamentals of Christology, 320). He consummates his human experience in all these dimensions only in dying and rising to a new, definitive form of human existence (ibid., 317).

    Fifth, the exaltation refers to the resurrected heavenly Jesus that died on the cross, who does not cease to be human (ibid., 318), a glorified human yet still God the Son to whom every knee shall bow. And any exaltation that God the Son might have enjoyed was with respect to His grade, order, appearance, aspect or manifestation (Tertullian). It would be a change in order of precedence in operation, a change in the relationship, but it would not alter in any way the essential being, nature and power of God; that which defines the triune God as one.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    I personally believe that God is Almighty, and Jesus is mighty God, as the bible states, Prince of Peace, etc..

    This is a typical Society ploy. You left out the two words following "mighty God" where the child born is called "Eternal Father." To think that Jesus was nothing more than a man is ridiculous.

    In addition to Jesus Christ’s omnipotence, he is and always has been eternal, a Scriptural truth strongly denied by the Jehovah's Witnesses who teach, incorrectly, that Jesus is a created being granted immortality only after his resurrection. But even Isaiah 9:6 in the Jehovah's Witnesses’ New World Translation disproves that theory where Christ is referred to as “Eternal Father.”

    For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be on his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#27

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    [Well, I must admit that what I am posting is QUITE different... and a lot more... than I had intended to post. When the Spirit first directed me to ask the question regarding Revelation 22:20, I thought, "Okay, a fairly quick matter" (which was important, because I have not eaten since 8am and it's now 4:30pm... and I'm a diabetic. COULD have been a problem). BUT... well, who can dictate to the Spirit? No one. All one can do is listen... and do "just so." So... here is what resulted (and my blood sugar is fine! )]:

    Previously I was directed to write that understanding the Revelation cannot be done simply by reading it. It is a “revelation” and therefore its truths must be REVEALED… by the Spirit. Although I have not been given understanding as to ALL that is written in the prophesy I have had the privilege of receiving some. Regarding what was presented to John, as recorded in the 20 th to 22 nd Chapters of that prophesy and as far as it bears weight on the difference between JAH of Armies, the MOST Holy One of Israel, and His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel… here is what I have received from the Spirit:

    Revelation 22:12, 13 is the FULFILLMENT of Matthew 21:33-41. There, the HOUSEHOLDER, who "went abroad," sent his son... who was killed. The Household is the MOST Holy One of Israel... and the son, His Son and Christ. Here (at Rev. 22:12, 13), it is the MOST Holy One of Israel who is "coming quickly." The Christ has already "returned" and "gathered his chosen ones," which occurs immediately AFTER the great tribulation, which took place more than 1,000 years before. It is the MOST Holy One of Israel that “renders to each one as to his work” when HE sits on His throne and judges - Matthew 24:31; Revelation 20:4, 11-15

    Revelation 21 and 22depict what takes place DURING the 1,000 years, AFTER Satan is abyssed… and BEFORE [the War at] Har-Magedon - (Revelation 20:1-4, 7). In this part of the vision, John is seeing NEW JERUSALEM… the “Holy City” which is made up of PEOPLE… AS and AFTER it “comes down out of heaven” (i.e., the sons are REVEALED) - Revelation 21:19; Ephesians 2:19-21; Romans 8:19

    Christ and co-rulers sit down on thrones and begin to rule. THIS… is the FULFILLMENT of "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven.” They are on the EARTH (which NOT formed for NOTHING)… and that is HOW Gog and Magog are ABLE to “advance over the breadth of the EARTH and encircle the “camp” of the “holy ones” AND the “beloved city.” Because such ones rule UPON (and not OVER) the earth Revelation 22:1-4; Revelation 20:9; 5:10

    Christ, then, HAS ALREADY returned/arrived/come… as far as HIS “coming” is concerned. HE “came quickly” at the START of the 1,000 years… when he gathered his chosen ones and they all sat down on thrones - Revelation 20:4; Matthew 24:29-31

    The One who says He is “coming quickly” at Revelation 22:12… is his Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel. HE is the One who, once the 1,000 years have ended and Satan is loosed and leads Gog and Magog to WAR against Christ and his armies… by coming AGAINST that “Holy City” New Jerusalem… destroy these by fire… which comes from HIM. Then HE hurls Satan into Gehenna… after which HE sits down on HIS throne… to JUDGE… because Christ… turns the kingdom back over to him to DO the judging – Revelation 20:7-10;Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 20:11-15; 1 Corinthians 15:24

    John is seeing this “City” and its features… which depict the PEOPLE who make it up… Christ, the Lamb… who IS the TREE OF LIFE from which ALL in the City “eat”… and live… forever. There is only ONE Tree… NOT “trees,” and it if from IT’s “leaves”… the FLESH of CHRIST… that we eat - Revelation 22:1, 2; John 6:41, 48-55; Genesis 3:22; Psalm 78:24, 25; John 15:1

    Revelation 22:14is the FULFILLMENT of Matthew 25:31-40. These are the SHEEP… who are given AUTHORITY to go into the City and EAT from the Tree of Life… CHRIST… and so live forever. Notice, at Matthew 25:34, the KING says, “Come, you who have been blessed… BY MY FATHER,” and not “you who I have blessed.”

    Revelation 22:15 is the FULFILLMENT of Matthew 25:41-46. These are the GOATS… “GOG”… who, along with MAGOG (the “wicked” spirits that “sinned”)… will be devoured by that fire from the MOST Holy One of Israel. They are OUTSIDE the City. And they can BE devoured by the fire… because they have been PREVENTED from entering into the Holy City (“cut off”)… and so were not able to eat from Christ, the TREE OF LIFE… and LIVE… forever. Had they been to enter (as Satan misled them to believe they could)… they would have been able to EAT… from the Tree of LIFE… and live forever. That is WHY God destroys them with FIRE: while the physical body can die… THE SPIRIT DOES NOT DIE. Rather… the spirit… and spirits… MUST be destroyed. And it is ONLY by fire that they can be. Keeping them from “eating from the Tree [of Life] prepares them for this destruction – Matthew 10:28

    ForRevelation 22:20, in order to know WHO is “coming quickly” here, we only need to look at Revelation 22:16, which states:

    “I, JAHESHUAsentmy ANGELTO BEAR WITNESS…to you people…”

    At Revelation 22:18thatANGEL says:

    Iam bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophesy of this scroll…”

    So, here, it is our Lord’s ANGEL… “he that bears witness of these things”… who is “coming quickly.” But… this is understandable… because our Lord’s return is preceded by [an] angel[s] - Matthew 24:31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    But… does that negate the next statement, “Amen! Come, Lord JAHESHUA?” Not at all! At the time John wrote the prophesy… neither our Lord, Christ, had returned to gather his chosen ones, NOR had the MOST Holy One of Israel “came” to place Christ’s enemies… Gog, Magog, Satan… and death… “as a stool for Christ’s) feetPsalm 110:1; 1 Corinthians 15:24, 26

    So, what is the gist? That IF we are going to look to what is “written,” rather than LOOK to the One who can lead us into ALL truth… about himself, about His Father, about what is written… then we need to understand that just because a phrase applies to one person in one instance, does NOT means it always applies to that same one in another instance. Here, it is neither God NOR Christ who say they are “coming quickly,” but angel who bore witness to the prophesy.

    A final thought from the Spirit:

    We are to keep in mind that it is a Revelation of/by Christ… WHICH GOD GAVE HIM. Thus, it is Revelation that originated in the MOST Holy (i.e., the Father, JAH of Armies)… and came THROUGH the HOLY (i.e., the Son, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH)… so as to be presented to John by an angel.

    I, SA, have shared this truth with you, just as I received it from the Holy Spirit, my Lord and Master, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

    May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whose name is JAH… of Armies, and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… be upon you… and may you be granted ears to hear… if you so wish it… when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

    “Come! Take life’s water, the holy spirit of God, which spirit is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… free!”

    I bid you all peace.

    Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with, and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • truthlover
    truthlover

    SO JD, did u answer the scripture at 1 John 5:1,5-8 indicating you are calling God a liar by saying Jesus is not his SON ??

    you quote a lot of worldly expertise works alluding to the notion that Jesus and God are one, yet the scriptures still indicate two - and the holy spirit would be another, yet all had the same goal, hence could be referred to as one - one in purpose,unity, and if I remember correctly, when Jesus said he and the father were one- he meant in purpose.. to restore the earth to what it was designed to be - a perfect home for us who are "meek".. you indicated an example of a president who was sick, and the VP taking over, but they are still two individuals - with the same goal and purpose, I would hope...

    \..And Jesus could rightly be called Eternal Father as he, by his death, allowed us to live if we accept him... I dont see a problem there...

    as a side note - a vast majority of names in the bible allude to the Name Jehovah -- i.e. Jehovah is God, Jehovah is My God, etc.. check the Jewish name dictionary -- there was a God of the Israelites, Jehovah, they honored Him by adding His name to their Children for posterity, if nothing else.. so let's get that one out of the way... God has a name -- Jesus has a name - both different, both meanings in Hebrew different,

    Also, when Jesus went back to heaven, he did not go with his human body as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom as shown in 1 Corinthians, one of your statements indicated that, or am I mis reading it...

    Where is Narc lately?? I havent had time to read the replies -- and he is a great scholar....

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    For those who believe Christ and God are one and the same... may you have peace!

    Okay, let us move on past the verses I've asked you to comment on in my previous posts. Obviously, no one's going to touch those (most probably because the scholars/theologians you put your faith in haven't written anything on them.. yet). But, okay... so be it. I would now like to ask how do you explain the following scripture (taken from Isaiah 7:14-16). Please note, I am including THREE (3) versions in order to make the verse clear... but you should feel FREE to look up other versions if you need to:

    RSV –

    "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

    NLT –

    "All right then, the Lord himself will choose the sign. Look! The virgin [fn] will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel--`God is with us.' By the time this child is old enough to eat curds and honey, he will know enough to choose what is right and reject what is wrong. But before he knows right from wrong, the two kings you fear so much--the kings of Israel and Aram--will both be dead."

    NIV –

    "Therefore the Lord himself will give you [fn] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

    So, now I must ask you, and please, you tell ME: WHEN would the MOST Holy One of Israel, the MOST High God... NOT know to REJECT the evil/wrong... and CHOOSE the right/good? I can tell you when: never. It never happened. BUT... my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel... DID need to learn some things... which things he LEARNED... from His Father, just as HE is recorded to have said:

    "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. " John 8:28

    So, I await your response. In the meantime:

    To draw an analogy, when the President of the United States undergoes surgery whereby he is rendered unconscious during the operation he temporarily relinquishes presidential authority to the vice-president. After the operation that authority is tendered back to the president who never ceases being president during the operation in the same manner that the Word never ceased being God the Son when He emptied Himself. It was merely his status or role or relationship that changed. Accordingly, being fully God the Son, the God in the God-man equation was never elevated back or exalted to a position superior to God because He never ceased being God in the same way that the president never stopped being President.

    This analogy is SO flawed. To use YOUR logic, the President... and the vice-president... would have to be one and the same person. Which they are not. Rather, the President is the COMMANDER IN CHIEF... and the Vice-President is SECOND IN COMMAND. Thus, in YOUR analogy, when the President "relinquishes presidential authority" he would be releasing it to himself... under another title. The TRUTH, however, and you analogy does in fact show it... is that the President (God) released authority to His Second in Command, the Vice-President (Christ)... who is an entirely different person.

    HOWEVER... just a like Vice-President can be "one" with the President with regard to their respective beliefs on politics, legislation, government, and everything ELSE related to their office(s) and country/people, CHRIST... is "one" with GOD... in ALL things... related to THEIR kingdom, rulership, law (of love)... as well as THEIR kingdom and people.

    C'mon... you can do better than that.

    I bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello TL,

    I personally believe that God is Almighty, and Jesus is mighty God, as the bible states, Prince of Peace, etc..

    Thanks for your perusal....

    Forgive me, but what's the difference? It all goes back to the same question, is Jesus God or "a god".

    I truly believe if you invite the Holy Spirit to show teach you and read these passages regarding the title "Alpha and the Omega" you cannot believe the WT teaching or anything like it.

    Revelation 1 Revelation 21 Revelation 22

    Anyhow, read them and see what He says :)

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you have peace!

    Some of us have actually already read those verses... and commented on them... that they are in fact NOT Christ speaking... but the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. I know it's a lot, but you might want to go back and read some, if not all, of what is already posted.

    In the meantime, I bid you the greatest of love and peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA, who thinks this "horse" has been completely "beat"... and so... I'm "done" here...

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello AGuest,

    May you have the eyes of your heart enlightened! Ephesians 1:18

    The verses speak of Jesus and of the Father. They use the same title "Alpha and Omega" for both. If anyone still thinks the Father is God but Jesus is only "a god" is deceived.

    As has already been commented on, Jesus was dead and is alive and is mentioned overtly in the very same manner as the Father.

    It doesn't matter who is speaking, but what and whom they are speaking of.

    That said, it is Jesus' revelation, through His angel, see the first chapter and the first verse!

    Also the last chapter and the sixteenth verse, same deal.

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    SO JD, did u answer the scripture at 1 John 5:1,5-8 indicating you are calling God a liar by saying Jesus is not his SON ??
    you quote a lot of worldly expertise works alluding to the notion that Jesus and God are one, yet the scriptures still indicate two -

    I know you mean well but you haven't read a word I wrote, or thought about it very deeply. The doctrine of the Trinity (which is issue here) is very logical and you have been utterly mislead by the Society into believing it is something it is not. You've been deceived. You need to go back to the basics and understand how you have been mislead. Based upon your statement you still don't get it, still don't understand the hypostatic union. Well, the information is there, plenty of it and if you are serious and honest with yourself you will read it. 2,000 years of sound Christian theology back this up. Your so-called JW Bible scholars are children in this regard, not very smart compared to the likes of Moltmann or Aquinas, and certainly not Bible scholars in any true academic sense. The Trinity doctrine does not teach that Jesus the man, the created humanity, the creature, is the Almighty. It doesn't teach that, and until you grasp this very simple concept you will be spinning your wheels in confusion. But maybe that gives you solace.

    You also need to grasp the essential difference between immanent and economic trinity. As for 1 John 5:1, 5-8, of course Jesus is God's Son, but Jesus is not God's son by virtue of His birth two thousand years ago; the Word has always been God the Son from eternity. The Word is God the Son. Jesus is a divine person who assumed a human nature. God the Father and God the Son are distinct but not separate, not individuals, but here we are talking about immanent Trinity, before creation, who God is in himself. This is very basic Christian teaching. I'll quote the introduction to this section on my web site to give you an overview of how you have been mislead into believing something that isn't true. Remember, because Jesus the creature, the created humanity, is not the Almighty He can pray to the Father without contradiction. And in that sense they are two. It really does make sense.

    “The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God, who exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons share the one divine nature. They are equal, co-eternal and omnipotent. They are distinct from one another: The Father has no source, the Son is born of the substance of the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father (or from the Father and the Son). Though distinct, the three persons cannot be divided from one another in being or in operation (Oxford Dictionary of the Bible [New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 2005] 1207) (Oxford). With minor changes, the reformed Protestant churches have essentially adapted the Catholic teachings on the Trinity Doctrine (see section 12).

    Central to the doctrine that God is three Persons in one nature is the premise that “Jesus is God,” a term which causes great confusion among the Jehovah’s Witnesses who unfortunately do not understand what is meant by this Trinitarian phrase or what the Trinity doctrine teaches. One of their more bizarre errors lies in believing that Christ is a created angel who became man and after the resurrection reverted back to being an angel.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses have published countless pages of criticism of Christian Trinitarianism, teaching that it is the work of Satan and utterly illogical. This relentless attack, however, is based upon certain misconceptions and falsehoods allowing them to capitalize on many unsuspecting individuals’ ignorance of accurate Trinity dogma.Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.

    First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.

    This treatise begins by shining a light on the worst of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misunderstandings, and goes on to explain in greater detail what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. From there, many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity are disposed of in light of more accurate teaching, after which a further examination is made of scriptural support for the Trinity in the Bible.

    A major section is then devoted to select Bible verses that prove that Jesus was, and is, God, followed by a brief summary of early Trinitarian theology which provides us with a better understanding of the doctrine’s foundation. The concluding section is devoted to the issue of Jesus Christ being a created angel.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religion is essentially 4th century Arian Subordinationism (see section 41) have said many things about the doctrine of the Trinity that are simply not true. Out of a sense of common decency and respect, those who propound and believe in the doctrine and people who seek to understand it better are entitled at a minimum to a fair hearing on the issues, which is the primary goal of this work.

    But before you begin, it is very important to understand two simple concepts which lie at the heart of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ errors; the difference between immanent Trinity and economic Trinity, and how their religion has commingled them resulting in untold confusion.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1

    See also proof texts that Jesus was and is God at:

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

    John 1:1 "and the Word was God" should be a conclusion reached based upon all of the proofs that Jesus was, and is, God, not a starting point.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    when Jesus said he and the father were one- he meant in purpose..

    That they had the same purpose goes without saying, but it means much, much more than that. You are just spouting what they tell you to repeat.

    to restore the earth to what it was designed to be - a perfect home for us who are "meek".. you indicated an example of a president who was sick, and the VP taking over, but they are still two individuals

    Yes, of course, but it was meant to illustrate a principle, the change of a relationship, how God the Son took on a veiled status during His sojurn, and that He never ceased being God any more than the president ceased being the president. Don't read more in that than was intended.

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