Is Atheism a Form of Blind Faith? (page 8)

besty

for Perry

For someone to even use the term atheism, they are making a claim.

I would say a-theism is more of a counter-claim to the pre-existing notion of theism. When most everybody believed in God(s) the novelty of dis-belief had to be expressed from a theistic point of view, even if negatively. So the main burden of proof remains with the initial claimant.

If lack of belief had come first then perhaps theists would have had to invoke the negative form of whatever word was in use to describe dis-belief.

However as we are unreasonably progressing - with a nod to sometime atheist George Bernard Shaw - towards rationality we will have these little etymological spats with the believer rearguard.

BTW Perry - may i ask what religion you would be if you had been born in Afghanistan? - clue - there is 1 Jew and no Christians in the entire country.

AllTimeJeff

Again, this whole premise is absurd.

Theists, esp some Christian theists, are so conditioned to see the world in religious terms that they must even assign atheists with some kind of "faith".

Word definitions and semantics games do not change the underlying understanding of what atheism is or means. Perry, even words have great meanings. Surely you understand this!

Being unreasonable and using Merriam-Webster where the Gospels fail you is not helping your cause.

Your cause (whatever that is) is lost.

Again, might I stress one critical element that I feel is lacking in all of this: Lets assume god exists. Then what? Your god? My god? Another god?

There is an agenda to this entire thread, and it isn't about proving 'a' god exists, but rather, proving 'your' god exists. JW's and other religion do this where atheists and agnostics are concerned, and I can certainly relate to that tactic. I certainly tried it.

As a JW, I couldn't talk about Jehovah to an atheist. They didn't believe in any god. So I had to build faith that at least something was up there. THEN, I could swing away with my WTBTS approved Jehovah arguments.

But the agenda was already there.

I suppose thats the thing. Password and Perry, you might mean well, but your agenda is not lost on anyone here. The agenda isn't to show that god may or may not exist. The agenda is to convince us that Jesus is that higher power, that god that must be worshipped.

It's not that I begrudge you this, but it is hard to prove at best that a god exists. The problem then is, which god? This is no small matter to me.

I really do perceive that something is out there. But it isn't Jesus.

passwordprotected

@ AllTimeJeff - "I suppose thats the thing. Password and Perry, you might mean well, but your agenda is not lost on anyone here. The agenda isn't to show that god may or may not exist. The agenda is to convince us that Jesus is that higher power, that god that must be worshipped."

Now, come on. I'm not saying anywhere on this thread that Jesus is to be worshipped. Please don't slap agendas onto my arguments.

As for faith, it might be worth seeking a scientist and asking him about faith and whether he has it. You may find, if he's very honest, he'll be like the physicist I was speaking to a few weeks ago who conceding that faith is an intrinsic part of what he does, day in day out; until he has the data, he's working with faith.

Earlier someone said something about their being multi-universes, or similar. Do scientists have the data on this theory, or are they taking a hunch and going on faith, faith that their hunch may be true - even though they've no evidence - and then working to prove their theory?

It's amazing how prickly the atheists here get when the word faith is put anywhere near them in a sentence. At the end of the day, take a long hard look at what you believe;

- humans are pitiless creatures with no hope or purpose, no better than fish or elephants

- God is a fanciful notion invented by humans in a more stunted intellectual state

Yet you believe this without the data.

You believe it, perhaps, because it's what you want to believe or because it's what your experience tells you.

I believe it's important to consider the wording when your read atheist CliffNotes;

There's probably no God.

The word 'probably' is key. That means they don't have the evidence to say 'there's absolutely no God'. And because they don't have the evidence they're working blind.

Therefore their faith (i.e. complete trust and confidence) that God does not exist is blind (there's no data or evidence to back it up).

AllTimeJeff

Now, come on. I'm not saying anywhere on this thread that Jesus is to be worshipped. Please don't slap agendas onto my arguments.

Fair enough. But at that point, the point is moot. If you don't have a god to be worshipped, that means it doesn't matter does it what I may or may not find as to the alleged existence of god?

I find in your post that this idea that "faith" must include a "faith of non belief" is absurd. But I can't change your mind on that it seems.

Should atheists continue to look for god because you insist Password? When is it time to stop looking at what hasn't/cannot be found?

AllTimeJeff

Btw, I am east coaster in the US who is finally dozing to sleep, so I may respond later...

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

passwordprotected

@ ATJ - "I find in your post that this idea that "faith" must include a "faith of non belief" is absurd. But I can't change your mind on that it seems.

Should atheists continue to look for god because you insist Password? When is it time to stop looking at what hasn't/cannot be found?"

You can find it absurd if you wish, but look at it logically; lack of evidence and belief despite the lack of evidence requires faith. Maybe you need to unhook the word 'religious' from faith for it to make sense in this context.

I'm not insisting that atheists look for God. Where did that come across? I'm challenging them to look at the fact that some of the mud they sling at believers in God has actually managed to get on them too, namely both groups have a faith.

Dawkins says it should be illegal for parents to indoctrinate their children with their religious beliefs. Yet he wrote an open letter to his daughter that starts with the line "Now that you are 10..." and goes onto explain how it's wrong to have beliefs without evidence (it's an interesting read, it's like the Ladybird Books version of the God Delusion).

Isn't that indoctrinating a child with his particular beliefs?

So, sometimes both camps have the same junk in their backyard, but are pointing and shouting at the other camp to clean their mess up.

HintOfLime

I can't speak for all of atheism, but science is not blind. As for the 'gods' - put up or shut up.

COME ON GOD, DO IT! We're wearing lightning rods on our heads!!!

Science puts up. Evolutionary biology furthers our understanding of biological structures - and it marches on. 'Gods' don't do jack, and aren't required to explain the universe. Why should anyone freaking care if he/she/it exists or how much 'faith' is required to believe or not believe in it.

"Samson lost his magic hair. Jonah was eated by a fish, but was puked out 3 days later." Congratulations, you win! Atheists really do have blind faith for stubbornly refusing not to believe that shit.

- Lime

PS: Meeehhh, Just let them win. They need to feel validated sooo bad (otherwise, they wouldn't have started the topic.)

Narkissos

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/83839/1/What-kind-of-atheist-are-you

HintOfLime

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/83839/1/What-kind-of-atheist-are-you

So...

x = y + 1....

OR... or.. (wait for it...)

x = 1 + y!!!!

HA HA!!!

- Lime

PS: Can someone shove me in a dang coconut already, I've had about enough of this.

nicolaou

On definitions of Agnosticism and Atheism I'd suggest Perry read through this three year old topic: There is no such thing as Agnosticism. Agnostics do not exist!

One of my comments at that time was;

"In ordinary usage I fully accept that theist = believer in God, agnostic = undecided about god and atheist = disbelieves god's existence.

As other posters have pointed out, words and their meanings evolve and drift over time and currently many dictionaries will define these words in the way commonly understood. Fine.

How about if a dictionary defined 'Christian' as "a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren." (see here) I know some on this board who call themselves Christian would reject that definition as they do not belong to an organization or church but simply try to imitate Christ's example as they read it in scripture.

Well I reject the definition of 'atheist' as someone who definitely believes that there is no god and, more to the point, so do almost all atheists!"

Nic'

Is Atheism a Form of Blind Faith?

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