God doesn't use imperfect people to lead them to him; he uses Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Jehovah Witnesses are NOT a bad Cult but man made type spiritual guide
butterfly: Parakeet, do you not remember King Manasseh. (2 Kings) Or King David!
I remember them, but how does that answer my question?
... and Hitler wasn't a bad guy ... just misunderstood.
BUTTERFLYLEIA- Hello - Good thread by you ! My wife and I enjoyed chatting the other day with you. You do have a good, clear thinking reasoning mind. It takes time to research and inform yourself about how the WT society used " subtle " mind control on us. So be patient with yourself - Rome wasn't built in one night ! LOL!
One thing I wanted to mention , think about this : You quoted a statement that the WT society uses a lot " Jehovah uses imperfect men". Yes he very well may. However the WT society EXCUSES their leaders imperfections while criticizing other religions clergy and leaders. Case in point is the tract the witnesses distributed a couple years ago " Has Religion Betrayed God and Man ? " or some like title. In that tract the WT society criticized STRONGLY the Catholics for allowing priests to still serve as leaders in the Church while committing child abuse and being reassigned to different churches - just to reoffend and molest again.
But the WT society made excuses in the media to NBC news about the 16 child abuse lawsuits settled out of court with JW victims being paid off by the WT society. Essentially the WT society stated, " We have only had 11 elders charged with child abuse in the 100 plus year history of the organization . " What kind of bragging is THAT ! ? That's like saying , " Well the Catholics molested 50 or 100, we did less so. " It's ALL CRIMINAL ACTIVITY ! What about the thousands of non-elders who have moved around to different congregations and molested children ? They don't count ? Yet the WT society KNEW these elders were molesting innocent children- and they buried the files in vaults in congregations files . Only later until Barbara Anderson ( a former Bethelite ) discovered these hidden files - was the mass child abuse problem discovered and revealed .
The point I'm making is the WT society hypocritically cuts itself WAY more slack in what they call " imperfection " than they cut to other religions. Think about this carefully - because the more research you do - more of this kind of self congratulation type behavior is displayed by the WT society. Take care and enjoy your research Butterfly ! Hope all is well, Peace out, your friend, Mr. Flipper
Parakeet, do you not remember King Manasseh. (2 Kings) Or King David!
What I am saying the Organization have errored big. The witnesses as a body of people that are innocent... I can say this cause I was one of them. You said it your self the innocent childern and women... my grandpa was a good man, and so was my old best friend's father. The Organization will reap what they sow. Like this Kings they have sinned... so until then their time will come when God reveals them. And I hope it's soon...
Hey Flipper it was nice talking to you too!!
I totally agree with you. I just have a hard time seeing it as an evil vicious cult. I mean I could hold many things over elders, societies head, but because I love God and want to show respect to those who are victoms, like as a JW giving respect to the other churches.
I still haven't read the books yet. And thanks for the books you suggested!
To the JWN Board: People all the time ask why I would ever want to talk to my father (he did awful things to my mom and me). I tell them cause his my father and I love him. My mom suffered allot by the judgment of what the elders told her how to handle things, my grandma suffers when she sees other elders not show their love and conserns like my grandpa did, grandpa died not taking blood when faced with a serious blood disease Amyloidosis, my grandma and my mother both suffer because they can't talk to their daughter... Grandma compares herself to Job in the Bible. They suffer cause we live in an imperfect world but they have faith and hope for the future. They are obedient for what they feel is the greater good. They give up their lives and they have love for others. I say this types of people are not evil but loving, it's just sad. They have to suffer...
They don't HAVE to suffer. If I get you right, THEY are the ones shunning their daughter, i.e inflicting suffering. They may be deluded, but after awhile the "just following orders" bit just doesn't fly. Also, the blood doctrine kills more than jonestown every YEAR! I understand what you are saying, the rank and file are good people, but here is a quote from the film Boondock Saints that explains how i feel on that..
And I am reminded, on this holy day, of the sad story of Kitty Genovese. As you all may remember, a long time ago, almost thirty years ago, this poor soul cried out for help time and time again, but no person answered her calls. Though many saw, no one so much as called the police. They all just watched as Kitty was being stabbed to death in broad daylight. They watched as her assailant walked away. Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.
Once again, God is not dependant on people like Mannasseh or Moses (he never was, it was people who needed visible kings and leaders). Therefore, the entire premise of the Watch Tower Society of being God's channel of communication, God's only true organisation on earth to which people must come in order to receive salvation, is an Old Covenant idea.
And no matter how much time and effort the Watch Tower Society spend in trying to prove to people that they need an Old Covenant structure to follow and obey, it doesn't change the fact that we aren't to worship in this place, or in that temple, but rather to worship in spirit and truth, being guided by the Holy Spirit, with God's laws written on our hearts; in other words through the New Covenant.
God isn't going to restore truth to the Watch Tower Society; it didn't have it in the first place.
Butterly: The witnesses as a body of people that are innocent... I can say this cause I was one of them.
I was one of them too, so I can say this -- they are NOT innocent. Except for those raised and indoctrinated as dubs, they CHOSE to be dubs. If a child dies when a blood transfusion could have saved them, the parents stood by and CHOSE to let it happen. To me, that's murder.
If I had my way in such a case, the governing body, the elders, the hospital liaison committee, and the parents would ALL be in prison.
You said it your self the innocent childern and women ...
I should not have included adult dubs as innocents. When adult dubs refuse blood transfusions and die, they CHOOSE that for themselves. To me, that's suicide.
... my grandpa was a good man, and so was my old best friend's father.
Would they have allowed blood if YOUR life had been on the line? I've known some otherwise decent dubs, but many of their decisions can and have ruined lives.
The blood ban, disfellowshipping, shunning -- these are not the acts of good, innocent people.
The WTS is certainly guilty, but when adults CHOOSE to give up their responsibility to think for themselves and allow the WTS to tell them what to think, they are just as guilty.
The Organization will reap what they sow. Like this Kings they have sinned... so until then their time will come when God reveals them. And I hope it's soon...
:The Jehovah's Witnesses have changed allot sense 1970's.
Were you a JW in the 1970's so you can speak firsthand about what it was like to be a JW then?
I was and I can. Reading about it is not the same as living it and that is why I'm asking.