Does everyone else get this reaction from their JW family when discussing objections to the religion?

by jambon1 33 Replies latest jw friends

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  jambon1

  When pointing out my objections to the JW religion with my wife, I have noticed a worrying trend which even after 3 or 4 years shows no sign of relenting.

  After speaking calmly for an hour or so and logically pointing out my objections, my wife starts to put forward outrageous assertations about my points. For instance, if I am refering to the fact that disfellowshipping is a form of extreem punishment & I mention the terrible effects that being d/f'd can have on people, she will eventually retort with something like "so what you are saying is that we should tolerate paedophiles, rapists & thieves in the organisation then?"

  Of course, I've never at any point said anything of the sort.

  Or if I have been overly critical of the amount of control the society wants over peoples lives, she would reply "so what you are saying is that we should all just go out & do what we want, get drunk & live an immoral life?" Again, I haven't said any of that in the conversation.

  I always reply that it is her that is saying those things & not me. I always point that out to her.

  It is as if she misses the whole point of my reasonable objections & just replies with extreem examples rather than take on board the point of what I am saying.

  And the reason it is dangerous in my opinion is that it makes logical conversation based on fact almost impossible. The genuine points that I make are just cast aside and not discussed.

  Does anyone else face this kind of thing?
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  GapingMouth

  Absolutely. I told my wife less than a month ago that I didn't want to be a witness. Since then we've had a lot of conversations. I showed her the reigns of Babylonian Kings from the WTBTS literature and nada. I told her contradictions in the Bible. Basically it came down to this : she thought the wts were the only sincere ones on the planet and the dates didn't matter to her. Whenever I think I have made an excellent point she gets angry and says something completely illogical. Its still early days, but I can see this trend continuing. She said 'its better we don't talk about this subject'. Doh!
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  jeanniebeanz

  It is as if she misses the whole point of my reasonable objections & just replies with extreem examples rather than take on board the point of what I am saying.

  And the reason it is dangerous in my opinion is that it makes logical conversation based on fact almost impossible. The genuine points that I make are just cast aside and not discussed.

  This is how they are programmed to think. Any point that begins to cause them to feel uncomfortable will trigger this cult response.

  It is a self defence mechanism designed to end the conversation in such a way, that in their perverted view makes them 'win' the argument and preserves their delusion. The more extreme their example, the more outrageous their claim, the more they will believe it. Personally, I think that no reasoning will get through until they, themselves, begin to doubt over something personal to them, something they figure out for themselves. Reasoning doesn't work, because they don't know how to reason without triggering these self-defense mechanisms.

  Jean
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  carla

  Your converstion sounds just like around here! well, that would be when my jw was allowed to talk to me about anything jw. I agree with Jean's response. Until they affected personally or truly care more about the word of God and the impact they may have on others they will tow the wt line and even then they may not have the courage it takes to leave or the heart to leave family and friends.

  Watch their face carefully when they go into full cult mode, you will see an actual change come over their facial features and eyes, scary. May not happen every time you try to discuss but the first time I saw my jw's eyes literally glaze over and his facial features change before my eyes it scared the pants off of me! Then he must have been studying with this one guy and took on this other guys facial gestures and smile. My kids even had a name for that particular smile/smirk which I won't post here. Reading about cults and how this is quite normal for cult members oddly comforted me.
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  lepermessiah

  This is how they are programmed to think. Any point that begins to cause them to feel uncomfortable will trigger this cult response.

  I think that is such a key point. It took me months to be able to really do hardcore research on the internet, read these type of websites, etc, without feeling an overwhelming sense of anxiety, like I was doing something dirty - this despite the fact that i was totally disillusioned and disgusted. If you are born into it, it has been beaten into you since you were a little child. DO NOT QUESTION BIG BROTHER!

  Personally, I think that no reasoning will get through until they, themselves, begin to doubt over something personal to them, something they figure out for themselves.

  That is what happened to me. When it hit right in my gut CORE beliefs, and they were violated, I allowed myself to go down this road. Once I really started digging into what I was taught, the lipstick really came off of the pig.

  Thanks for a great post Jean!
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  leavingwt

  Have you read Steve Hassan's second book, 'Releasing the Bonds'?

  If not, you will likely find that it will answer most of your questions regarding your wife's responses.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Okay, to be fair I will say that I use "taking your assertion to the extreme" in my arguments. But I don't say it like the other person is saying the extreme. I just say that "if we do it your way.... the extreme will result." I am not looking to zing the other person in an argument, but to make actual valid points with them.

  There is no point in an argument where one person feels that "I showed him/her." That's probably what she's doing with you. Productive arguments score a point in reality by making the other person see something true or logical in the other's statements. In your case, she thinks that the logical conclusion is that you are dismissing the overall reasons for the way WTS things are done- for a protection.

  Try to understand that you are trying to break down her entire world of thought. Lashing out is to be expected.
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  lisavegas420

  She said 'its better we don't talk about this subject'. Doh!

  To me this is probably the sadest part of all. To be married to someone and not be able to discuss everything on your mind. You don't have to agree, with the other person, but why can't you at least discuss it.

  I'm so glad I'm married a non-JW...oh and the fact that he thinks I'm the smartest person he's ever known is pretty cool too.

  lisa
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  Satanus

  You're going up against emotion, not logic. The wt uses fear in it's brainwashing techniques. Logic won't work against fear.

  S
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  bohm

  Hey! two new faces here, WELCOME TO YOU ALL!!.

  For those who have not read it, i abselutely second leavingwt about reading stephen hassans book - this cult mode has nada to do about logic and you need to help them out of it to reach them. Stephen Hassans book give some tools and ideas that might be of help.

  The part about misrepresenting the opposite argument - its a common logical fallacy. The wt is full of them. You might find it helpfull to read about them here: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ and perhaps use google to find out how they apply to the typical jw argument. Then you can perhaps draw the discussion over to a meta-discussion regarding how you should talk to each other generally and the importance of not mis-representing each others arguments?.

  carla: Thats very interesting about the facial expression. I have never observed that, but i will keep a close eye when i meet someone truly programm... faitfull.